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Old 21st July 2007, 12:15   #61
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I have to say that I think stats by batting position are a bit of a snare and a delusion. There simply aren't enough data to state much about them with confidence beyond the bare numbers. Bell's records at 3 and 4 are also distorted by having played against the best team in the world in that slot or one could conversely argue that his record at 6 is distorted by batting there on good tracks against some pretty feeble attacks. He's also improved as a player since he was batting higher up the order. The only problem I see in him batting at 3 or 4 is the lack of a vacancy.
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Old 22nd July 2007, 12:44   #62
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The nightmare against India continues. I'm now wondering if it was a good idea to create this thread when he's doing his best to make himself droppable in time for Flintoff's return.
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Old 22nd July 2007, 12:46   #63
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The nightmare against India continues. I'm now wondering if it was a good idea to create this thread when he's doing his best to make himself droppable in time for Flintoff's return.
He got a ball that bounced about a foot and a half lower than the previous one which was shorter. It was all rather unlucky. Still, this hasn't been a test to remember for either him or Collingwood and hasn't exactly been great for Cook either.
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Old 22nd July 2007, 12:52   #64
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He got a ball that bounced about a foot and a half lower than the previous one which was shorter. It was all rather unlucky. Still, this hasn't been a test to remember for either him or Collingwood and hasn't exactly been great for Cook either.
I know there are excuses to be made for the shot, I watched all the replays. But it's funny how players can be dogged by bad luck just when they have something to prove. In both innings he has looked to be batting positively and played some great shots. Maybe he was trying just a bit too hard.
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Old 22nd July 2007, 12:55   #65
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I know there are excuses to be made for the shot, I watched all the replays. But it's funny how players can be dogged by bad luck just when they have something to prove. In both innings he has looked to be batting positively and played some great shots. Maybe he was trying just a bit too hard.
I think it's just cricket. He's been unlucky this test for sure. The first innings dismissal was to a shot the collapse of the rest of the side induced him to play and we've just discussed the second innings. It happens. He'll get some runs this series, I think.
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Old 22nd July 2007, 13:36   #66
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I think it's just cricket. He's been unlucky this test for sure. The first innings dismissal was to a shot the collapse of the rest of the side induced him to play and we've just discussed the second innings. It happens. He'll get some runs this series, I think.
I agree that Bell was a tad unlucky in both innings. I'm more concerned about Colly's two very soft dismissals. He has been something of a walking wicket in this match.
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Old 31st July 2007, 11:30   #67
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Another poor test for Bell.

He has really gone backwards since the Pakistan home series last year.

Lets hope he gets it together for the final test.
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Old 31st July 2007, 12:10   #68
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to be fair to him he was second top scorer in the first innings and got an absolute beauty second ball in the second. I think people tend to forget that good balls get good players out early on. I don't think KP, Bell, Vaughan or Prior had any real chance with their dismissals in the second innings. Only Strauss gave it away, and in both innings as well
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Old 31st July 2007, 12:27   #69
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I don't really agree with you on the Pietersen dismissal, although credit should go to the bowler for creating the uncertainty. I agree with you about Strauss - the manner of his dismissal in both innings was dissapointing. I'm rapidly losing faith in him despite two half centuries in this series.
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Old 31st July 2007, 12:56   #70
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I was hoping to leave this thread in comparative obscurity until Bell did something worth talking about in a positive way.

I said he seems to be going backwards, and perhaps that is harsh, but the early promise of the first two matches of the summer seem a long time ago and Bell needs a score.

His worst results have been against India - he did improve v. Australia second time round. After the last India series, in India, he was dropped for the subsequent matches v. Sri Lanka. And guess what? England's next series is against Sri Lanka. He must have a dreadful feeling of déja vu.
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Old 31st July 2007, 12:59   #71
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to be fair to him he was second top scorer in the first innings and got an absolute beauty second ball in the second. I think people tend to forget that good balls get good players out early on. I don't think KP, Bell, Vaughan or Prior had any real chance with their dismissals in the second innings. Only Strauss gave it away, and in both innings as well
Strauss nearly always looks relaxed and as if he's going to make a big score, and then lazily gives it away. You'd think that such an intelligent man would be a little more careful, given his recent record, but perhaps he feels that the way to succeed is playing freely and naturally.
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Old 31st July 2007, 13:13   #72
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I posted the following on the match thread, but think it probably should have been posted on this thread instead:


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I think this is the thing about Bell. He lets circumstances dictate. He doesn't seems to be able to change the course of an innings (at least in a positive way). If a team is on top, he might be able to keep them on top by taking the runs available in a partnership, it a team is struggling he'll struggle. KP can change the course of an innings with a brilliant counter-attack (eg the Oval, 2005), someone like Vaughan will block and leave, take the sting out of the new ball and then pile on the runs (like today), Cook will play his game put the opposition on the back foot by building a base for the likes of KP and Vaughan, Collingwood has shown he can be the backbone behind big innings but Bell doesn't seem to be able to do this. I'm struggling to think of a game where he has top-scored in a competitive innings by England. He's piled on runs against tired attacks when people have already got runs on the board, he's had a few brave and futile innings but he hasn't changed the course of a game with an innings. He needs to take this step.
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Old 31st July 2007, 13:34   #73
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Wink

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I posted the following on the match thread, but think it probably should have been posted on this thread instead:
I read it on the other thread but didn't comment last night after saying I'd said enough about Bell for one evening.

There is a lot of truth in what you say. I think Bell has the talent to be one of England's best batsmen for the next few years. He has played some very good innings and made centuries, but has failed to convert his fifties into hundreds, and hasn't seized the opportunity when other players have failed to show that he is the man who can save or win the match for England. I don't agree that he has never done this, but he has not done it often enough. Yesterday was perhaps just unfortunate, though.

Batting at 6 is a problem, I believe, but I have said a lot about that further up the thread and will probably come back to it in the future. He has made unbeaten hundreds in that position, which indicates he is capable of scoring a big hundred given the opportunity, but the innings has ended either because of a declaration or running out of partners.

I admit that I am disappointed with Bell's performance in the last few matches and hope that he can bounce back at the Oval, otherwise he will definitely be looking over his shoulder.
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Old 31st July 2007, 16:47   #74
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I read it on the other thread but didn't comment last night after saying I'd said enough about Bell for one evening.

There is a lot of truth in what you say. I think Bell has the talent to be one of England's best batsmen for the next few years. He has played some very good innings and made centuries, but has failed to convert his fifties into hundreds, and hasn't seized the opportunity when other players have failed to show that he is the man who can save or win the match for England. I don't agree that he has never done this, but he has not done it often enough. Yesterday was perhaps just unfortunate, though.

Batting at 6 is a problem, I believe, but I have said a lot about that further up the thread and will probably come back to it in the future. He has made unbeaten hundreds in that position, which indicates he is capable of scoring a big hundred given the opportunity, but the innings has ended either because of a declaration or running out of partners.

I admit that I am disappointed with Bell's performance in the last few matches and hope that he can bounce back at the Oval, otherwise he will definitely be looking over his shoulder.

Im not to be honest. Apart from yesterday, when he didnt have time, hes looked in good nick in this series. BTW since he was left out of the semi final, interesting to see Warwicks season fall completely apart. 6 defeats in 8 games, which should have been 7..
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Old 1st August 2007, 11:15   #75
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I really do think batting at six is doing Bell no good at all. It's fine when he's in the runs, but when he's not the temptation is always to jettison the player batting at six to accommodate a five man bowling attack.
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Old 1st August 2007, 11:21   #76
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The problem with 6 in this series is that Bell has been caught with the tail twice and both times I think that's contributed to his dismissal.
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Old 1st August 2007, 11:28   #77
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I really do think batting at six is doing Bell no good at all. It's fine when he's in the runs, but when he's not the temptation is always to jettison the player batting at six to accommodate a five man bowling attack.
It is an issue but as GBG has said I don't think its just his batting no that is the problem, its his own inability to force his own game on a match despite the circumstance. In a tight situation we have yet to see the best of him. You could suggest that him and Collingwood could swap positions but at the moment, who would you swap around? I really don't think you can change KP from 4, neither can you swap Vaughan from 3.
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Old 1st August 2007, 11:37   #78
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It is an issue but as GBG has said I don't think its just his batting no that is the problem, its his own inability to force his own game on a match despite the circumstance. In a tight situation we have yet to see the best of him. You could suggest that him and Collingwood could swap positions but at the moment, who would you swap around? I really don't think you can change KP from 4, neither can you swap Vaughan from 3.
That's the swap I'd make, Bell at 5 and Colly at 6. Colly is perfectly at home at the number six spot amongst the tail enders, much more so than Bell.
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Old 1st August 2007, 11:38   #79
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That's the swap I'd make, Bell at 5 and Colly at 6. Colly is perfectly at home at the number six spot amongst the tail enders, much more so than Bell.
Hard to do that at a time when Collingwood is scoring more runs than Bell though.
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Old 1st August 2007, 11:42   #80
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Hard to do that at a time when Collingwood is scoring more runs than Bell though.
Depends what you regard as important. Bell is meant to be in the side as a front line batsman, however by batting at six it implies (erroneously I would add) that he's being protected from the fast bowlers and the new ball. Colly is a scrapper, not a player imbued with latent talent but one who makes a fight of lower order runs. It's somewhat hard on him, but that's really what his role in the side should be.
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