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Old 11th March 2008, 02:47   #141
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I fear you are again defending mediocrity. Actually his batting and fielding don't even reach mediocrity. Yes, he's improved, but he is a no.10 at best bat (ie useless) and still an easy single every time the ball is played to him. You don't have to hide competent fielders, and you certainly have to hide Monty.

His bowling shows promise, but remains mediocre. In fact finger spinners struggle to be more than mediocre as their averages invariably reveal.
It's all true and yet despite it all being true he's still easily England's best option on anything but a stupidly green greentop. It's not good, is it?
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Old 11th March 2008, 03:10   #142
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It's all true and yet despite it all being true he's still easily England's best option on anything but a stupidly green greentop. It's not good, is it?
Not Test class??
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Old 11th March 2008, 11:12   #143
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I fear you are again defending mediocrity.
As an England supporter, it's a situation we all find ourselves in, unfortunately. This is, apparently, the best set of players we've got. It's true, Panesar hasn't become the saviour we were hoping for, but the rest of the team are either resting on past laurels or still to realise their full potential. Aside from Harmison, who has totally lost it, each player is capable of turning in a good performance, and as a unit, they could and should be able to put together winning performances. Something has happened to England in the last few months, a light has gone out, we can't explain it, but whether it's down to the captaincy or the new coach or other factors altogether, our players are not giving their best, including Panesar.
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Old 11th March 2008, 12:55   #144
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Not Test class??
No, Monty's test class with the ball, just still a marginal player even so. You're thinking of this as not test class.
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Old 11th March 2008, 13:44   #145
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I suppose one option we have is to play Adil Rashid, back him to the hilt and play 4 seamers.
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Old 11th March 2008, 14:59   #146
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I suppose one option we have is to play Adil Rashid, back him to the hilt and play 4 seamers.
Not a bad idea, but is Rashid good enough or even ready to play as the sole spinner? AND what 4 seamers would we play? As far as i can see we don't have 2 top class seamers at this point in time, let alone 4.

1. Cook
2. Vaughan
3. Bell
4. Pietersen
5. Collingwood
6. Ambrose
7. Rashid
8. Flintoff
9. Broad
10. Sidebottom
11. Hoggard

If we could get Flintoff fit and match fit in the summer i wouldn't mind seing that team given a run out. The batting bats very deep however numbers 6-8 we don't know how reliable with the bat they will be. Hopefully Ambrose/Rashid could have a great future in our lower order batting and help us build towards being a strong team again.
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Old 12th March 2008, 00:22   #147
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No, Monty's test class with the ball, just still a marginal player even so.
OK

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You're thinking of this as not test class.
Not completely familiar with this player - looks a likely sort though, someone should give him a go. I see in a recent series he couldn't match up with this genius, but he did outbowl this guy, but I guess he's another on the not Test class list.
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Old 12th March 2008, 00:45   #148
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I'm debating whether to give this feeble sally even a reply but it's not really my nature on the board to stay quiet. Those look like Hogg's best test figures to me though.

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Not completely familiar with this player - looks a likely sort though, someone should give him a go. I see in a recent series he couldn't match up with this genius, but he did outbowl this guy, but I guess he's another on the not Test class list.
He's the kind of youngster Australia ought to be giving a good long run in the side to, that's for sure.

Have to say that Harbhajan's overall test record is a bit disappointing, isn't it? It's hard work for finger spinners in test cricket.
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Old 12th March 2008, 01:12   #149
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Freakin server killed my reponse, so to summarise - although I strongly doubt you really debated whether to respond to my post, I agree with your sentiment and add that the worldwide spinning stocks aren't all that exciting at the moment.
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Old 12th March 2008, 01:18   #150
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Freakin server killed my reponse, so to summarise - although I strongly doubt you really debated whether to respond to my post, I agree with your sentiment and add that the worldwide spinning stocks aren't all that exciting at the moment.
Indeed not. Do you think MacGill will get another go for Australia? There aren't many plausible alternatives, are there? At least India has Chawla.
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Old 12th March 2008, 11:51   #151
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I find some of the negativity over Monty a bit over the top. So what if he hasn't developed how to vary his flight yet? That is something that finger spinners develop over time, usually because they can't spin the ball past the edge and have to find other ways of defeating batsmen. What Panesar does have is other attributes, height, huge hands, big ripper of the ball, that make him a dangerous prospect on most pitches, except those in Sri Lanka which basically just sat up to be hit. He's got a lot of Test wickets in a short amount of time, more than pretty much any other England bowler. Now, it's typical of the media to concentrate on what players can't do and keep ramming the point home until it finally breaks through to Monty and he loses the confidence to do what he's had success with in the first place. Ideally, the captains would encourage him to think of his own plans and set his own fields so he works out ways of getting these players out, and with that will come the confidence to try new variations as he gets older and bowls more overs. It appears to me that Vaughan doesn't give Monty any say on field placings. Whether that's an argument against Monty for not demanding a say or not I'm not sure, but I thought Strauss was much more eager to discuss with Monty what he wanted.
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Old 12th March 2008, 13:36   #152
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Monty having a mind of his own is a laughable conceit. Can you imagine a top-class player being out-thought by him? Sure, he might get them out, because he is accurate, and he turns it, and any top-class player can make an error against that. But out-thought? Pffft.
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Old 12th March 2008, 13:44   #153
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Monty having a mind of his own is a laughable conceit.
I suppose it might be if he went around saying that he could do it. Or did you mean concept?

*waits to be set straight. and by a celebrity(ish) lawyer to boot. oh the shame *
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Old 12th March 2008, 14:05   #154
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A conceit is a notion is an opinion.
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Old 12th March 2008, 14:11   #155
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A conceit is a notion is an opinion.
I bloody knew it.
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Old 12th March 2008, 14:48   #156
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I find some of the negativity over Monty a bit over the top. So what if he hasn't developed how to vary his flight yet? That is something that finger spinners develop over time, usually because they can't spin the ball past the edge and have to find other ways of defeating batsmen. What Panesar does have is other attributes, height, huge hands, big ripper of the ball, that make him a dangerous prospect on most pitches, except those in Sri Lanka which basically just sat up to be hit. He's got a lot of Test wickets in a short amount of time, more than pretty much any other England bowler. Now, it's typical of the media to concentrate on what players can't do and keep ramming the point home until it finally breaks through to Monty and he loses the confidence to do what he's had success with in the first place. Ideally, the captains would encourage him to think of his own plans and set his own fields so he works out ways of getting these players out, and with that will come the confidence to try new variations as he gets older and bowls more overs. It appears to me that Vaughan doesn't give Monty any say on field placings. Whether that's an argument against Monty for not demanding a say or not I'm not sure, but I thought Strauss was much more eager to discuss with Monty what he wanted.
I'd say those attributes make him useful rather than dangerous on most pitches.
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Old 13th March 2008, 01:00   #157
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I find some of the negativity over Monty a bit over the top. So what if he hasn't developed how to vary his flight yet? That is something that finger spinners develop over time, usually because they can't spin the ball past the edge and have to find other ways of defeating batsmen. What Panesar does have is other attributes, height, huge hands, big ripper of the ball, that make him a dangerous prospect on most pitches, except those in Sri Lanka which basically just sat up to be hit. He's got a lot of Test wickets in a short amount of time, more than pretty much any other England bowler. Now, it's typical of the media to concentrate on what players can't do and keep ramming the point home until it finally breaks through to Monty and he loses the confidence to do what he's had success with in the first place. Ideally, the captains would encourage him to think of his own plans and set his own fields so he works out ways of getting these players out, and with that will come the confidence to try new variations as he gets older and bowls more overs. It appears to me that Vaughan doesn't give Monty any say on field placings. Whether that's an argument against Monty for not demanding a say or not I'm not sure, but I thought Strauss was much more eager to discuss with Monty what he wanted.
For once Sharky we agree. If England want a spin option then Monty is currently the only player in contention. Hopefully that will not always be the case. He has clearly lost his way to some extent after a very good start which is often the case with spinners. Though it should be noted that it is in the context of a team that has lost its way and has not successfully developed a spinner over the longer term in 30 years. However, there could come a point where if, say, his performances deteriorated to a Gilesesque, 2 expensive wickets per match, then the lack of batting and fielding would definitley count against him.

Derek Underwood was talking about his lean patches the other night and how useful it was to have Alan Knott around with whom to work out different ways of getting players out when things weren't going well for him. That sort of relationship with fielders and especially the wicketkeeper should benefit Monty or whoever. So would informed and sympathetic captaincy. Having a wicketkeeper who can catch and take sharp stumpings is however, essential.
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Old 13th March 2008, 13:57   #158
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Monty having a mind of his own is a laughable conceit. Can you imagine a top-class player being out-thought by him? Sure, he might get them out, because he is accurate, and he turns it, and any top-class player can make an error against that. But out-thought? Pffft.
I'm not really sure I said 'out-thinking' batsmen, but anyway if he was given the chance to set his own fields he would at least have an opportunity. You also seem to base a lot of your argument on meeting him once and he wasn't particularly impressive, but I don't really see how sound judgements can be made on the basis of meeting him once. I can't think of any other English spin bowler out-thinking the best batsmen, or more importantly spinning out the best batsmen. What he doesn't need is people continually on his back over-exaggerating what he can't do when what he does do is generally pretty good and will only get better over time
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Old 13th March 2008, 15:50   #159
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I'm not really sure I said 'out-thinking' batsmen, but anyway if he was given the chance to set his own fields he would at least have an opportunity. You also seem to base a lot of your argument on meeting him once and he wasn't particularly impressive, but I don't really see how sound judgements can be made on the basis of meeting him once. I can't think of any other English spin bowler out-thinking the best batsmen, or more importantly spinning out the best batsmen. What he doesn't need is people continually on his back over-exaggerating what he can't do when what he does do is generally pretty good and will only get better over time
It's not just from meeting him once. It's from watching him bowl, seeing his whole demeanour, sitting through those cringeworthy interviews. He's never impressed me with any aspect of his game other than his application.
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Old 13th March 2008, 16:04   #160
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I'm pinning my hopes on Schofield having a breakthrough season this year.
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