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Old 29th April 2008, 22:10   #61
1000yardstare
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Just to make sure they don't steal the England candidates' lunches, you mean?
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Old 29th April 2008, 23:08   #62
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I hope Kirby can do himself justice and carry his County form at the back end of last year, his England Lions form in India which was moderate and his start to this season into the game, but I have to say he is better at the longer form of the game.

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Old 30th April 2008, 07:53   #63
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I hope Kirby can do himself justice and carry his County form at the back end of last year, his England Lions form in India which was moderate and his start to this season into the game, but I have to say he is better at the longer form of the game.

That is true but he is increasingly becoming a key part of our one-day side too. A couple of years ago when he first came to Glos he was rarely involved in one-day games at all, now he must be one of the first names down on the team sheet. He mixes hostility and pace with an increasing amount of control and he has definitely been working on slower balls and other variations over the winter. Whilst he is with the Lions, I think we'll miss him badly in our two one-day games that weekend. Good luck to him though - I hope he gets the nod to play.
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Old 4th July 2008, 21:26   #64
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Players for the next Lions tour ?
1 Denly
2 Horton
3 Godleman
4 Hildreth
5 Morgan
6 Patel
7 Read (c)
8 Bresnan
9 Kabir Ali
10 Woakes
11 Jones

12 Rashid
13 Lumb
14 Clare
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Old 4th July 2008, 22:06   #65
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Players for the next Lions tour ?
1 Denly
2 Horton
3 Godleman
4 Hildreth
5 Morgan
6 Patel
7 Read (c)
8 Bresnan
9 Kabir Ali
10 Woakes
11 Jones

12 Rashid
13 Lumb
14 Clare
Why on earth would Read be included?
You've surely got the wrong Ali as well.

Lions squads are always difficult to predict as you don't know whether they are going for reserves or looking to bring on the next generation, mainly because they keep on changing their mind as to what the purpose is of the Lions.

Someone like Carberry, who seems to have benefited immensely from last year's tour, might be given another tour or they might decide that players shouldn't tour more than once.

You've also got to try and factor in where and when it is, does it clash with any one-day series etc That may determine someone like Oasis Shah and Ravi Bopara's involvement.
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Old 5th July 2008, 22:11   #66
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Because he's averaging 50 in the Championship, which is in line with him having been by far the most consistent run scorer of the wicket-keepers in the Championship since being dropped by England in 2004, is widely ackowledged as the best wicket-keeper in the country and probably world and has captained Notts to the top of the Championship.
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Old 5th July 2008, 22:17   #67
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Because he's averaging 50 in the Championship, which is in line with him having been by far the most consistent run scorer of the wicket-keepers in the Championship since being dropped by England in 2004, is widely ackowledged as the best wicket-keeper in the country and probably world and has captained Notts to the top of the Championship.
The Lions tour is not a reward for excellent county service though.
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Old 5th July 2008, 22:39   #68
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Indeed, it's one for developing players for England.

The most damaging thing that even the most committed Read haters can say is that his technique is perfectly set up for piling on runs at county level but not good enough for international cricket. Surely you'll admit that the A side is therefore a good opportunity to mould his batting so it will stand up to international attacks, considering his batting was showing some promise before Fletcher made probably his poorest decision as England coach?

Personally I'd have him in the full side now anyway because I still think that as an all-round package he will still make a better contribution to the England team than that of inferior keepers but better batsmen...
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Old 5th July 2008, 23:01   #69
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In a team with 6 batsmen and Broad, its hard to see why the selectors cant find space for Read.
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Old 5th July 2008, 23:03   #70
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Why on earth would Read be included?
You've surely got the wrong Ali as well.
I must admit I don't know when or where the next "Lions" tour is, but I agree with 1000ys and Gilo's Doos that Read would be a decent pick. He's not getting worse at anything, and if England want a better wicketkeeper, he's tried and tested. I agree though GBG that Kabir Ali has probably shot his bolt now as far as non-county international development is concerned. Its a shame Newby and Smith of Lancs haven't been more prominent this year.
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Old 5th July 2008, 23:04   #71
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Indeed, it's one for developing players for England.
Which is precisely my point.

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The most damaging thing that even the most committed Read haters can say is that his technique is perfectly set up for piling on runs at county level but not good enough for international cricket. Surely you'll admit that the A side is therefore a good opportunity to mould his batting so it will stand up to international attacks, considering his batting was showing some promise before Fletcher made probably his poorest decision as England coach?
I know there's a whole persecution complex thing that people play up to on this but I rather doubt many people hate Read. We just think that he can't bat at international level and the record supports that argument, no matter how good his eye is at county level. It's partly technique, I'm sure and partly temperament. The notion that his batting was showing some promise doesn't stand up to a look at the way he was batting against Pakistan, nor his ODI performances after recall, nor his performances against Australia. As for whether he could change his batting to suit international cricket better, he's had his chance to do so. He was told to play on the front foot now and again when he was first in the England side and didn't. The Lions tour is not, or shouldn't be, for 30 year olds who have had a decent few games of international cricket.

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Personally I'd have him in the full side now anyway because I still think that as an all-round package he will still make a better contribution to the England team than that of inferior keepers but better batsmen...
Yes, we know you'd have him in the full side. Ambrose has done absolutely fine for the test side. Do you really think that Read has any realistic chance of an England recall? If not, why take up a slot on the Lions tour.
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Old 5th July 2008, 23:25   #72
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what about Pipe though??
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Old 5th July 2008, 23:30   #73
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... We just think that he [Read] can't bat at international level and the record supports that argument, no matter how good his eye is at county level. It's partly technique, I'm sure and partly temperament. The notion that his batting was showing some promise doesn't stand up to a look at the way he was batting against Pakistan, nor his ODI performances after recall, nor his performances against Australia. As for whether he could change his batting to suit international cricket better, he's had his chance to do so. He was told to play on the front foot now and again when he was first in the England side and didn't. The Lions tour is not, or shouldn't be, for 30 year olds who have had a decent few games of international cricket.
Well, it's a possible opportunity for bringing on possible future England test keepers. And Read has certainly done well for the Lions before. His batting has consistently showed promise; it's really just a question of whether one is inclined (given the needs of the test team) to allow the negative batting evidence to counterweigh it. But he seems to be captaining well at Notts, and is surely maturing. Personally, given the revolving door that is otherwise likely to operate in the keeper's case (and there are other reasons too), I think it is a good slot in the team for a senior pro. That's perhaps partly why Stewart was able to do it so well, and also, I suspect, partly why Prior and Jones did it so badly, and partly why Jones was quickly and hopefully introduced into the senior players cabal or whatever it was. Incidentally, I wish the England A/Lions team had kept playing in the WI domestic long-match cup competition.
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Yes, we know [Gilo's]'d have him in the full side. Ambrose has done absolutely fine for the test side. Do you really think that Read has any realistic chance of an England recall? If not, why take up a slot on the Lions tour.
I think Read does have a realistic chance of an England recall. The only reason England have been unhappy with him was because of his batting returns in times when England really wanted more runs from their keeper. England are never going to say no to keeper's runs, but it may be that England's batting will improve overall (as may Read's continue to). I agree that Ambrose has done fine, but he is not as good a keeper as Read. And just as Read might be criticised for imperfect batting technique and test runs that looked a bit streaky, so might Ambrose. It's earlier days with Ambrose, of course; but imperfect batting is what you'd expect if you'd dropped the previous incumbent specifically in order to improve the keeping. I suppose what I'm saying is that given that England have decided to compromise on the keeper's runs in order to keep keeping standards up, a lot will depend on Ambrose's keeping in tight matches.
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Old 5th July 2008, 23:31   #74
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The Lions tour is not, or shouldn't be, for 30 year olds who have had a decent few games of international cricket.
Kirby, Shreck, Lewis, Richardson?
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Old 5th July 2008, 23:37   #75
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Kirby, Shreck, Lewis, Richardson?
Well I might not pick / have picked (depending on which you mean) any of them either but have any of them had a decent few games of international cricket? Hardly. Lewis is the closest and I neither think he's any chance of selection for the Lions now, nor would I dream of selecting him.
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Old 5th July 2008, 23:40   #76
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Kirby, Shreck, Lewis, Richardson?
A) That's FS's opinion - if 30 year olds who have had a decent few games of international cricket have been picked previously, then I'm going to assume he thought they shouldn't have been. However -

B) Out of the examples, the only one who has had some games of international cricket is Lewis. And he's never been on a Lions tour.

Edit: Woah, very late there
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Old 5th July 2008, 23:46   #77
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Well, it's a possible opportunity for bringing on possible future England test keepers. And Read has certainly done well for the Lions before. His batting has consistently showed promise; it's really just a question of whether one is inclined (given the needs of the test team) to allow the negative batting evidence to counterweigh it. But he seems to be captaining well at Notts, and is surely maturing. Personally, given the revolving door that is otherwise likely to operate in the keeper's case (and there are other reasons too), I think it is a good slot in the team for a senior pro. That's perhaps partly why Stewart was able to do it so well, and also, I suspect, partly why Prior and Jones did it so badly, and partly why Jones was quickly and hopefully introduced into the senior players cabal or whatever it was. Incidentally, I wish the England A/Lions team had kept playing in the WI domestic long-match cup competition.
I don't really follow the senior pro argument, I'm afraid. Do you mean that bringing Read back in with a lot of experience of county cricket and a bit of failure with the bat in international cricket would enhance the side? Aside from the whole Read debate itself, I don't see that repeated Lions tours for players who've played several international games already offer much in the way of experience to that player.

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I think Read does have a realistic chance of an England recall. The only reason England have been unhappy with him was because of his batting returns in times when England really wanted more runs from their keeper. England are never going to say no to keeper's runs, but it may be that England's batting will improve overall (as may Read's continue to). I agree that Ambrose has done fine, but he is not as good a keeper as Read. And just as Read might be criticised for imperfect batting technique and test runs that looked a bit streaky, so might Ambrose. It's earlier days with Ambrose, of course; but imperfect batting is what you'd expect if you'd dropped the previous incumbent specifically in order to improve the keeping. I suppose what I'm saying is that given that England have decided to compromise on the keeper's runs in order to keep keeping standards up, a lot will depend on Ambrose's keeping in tight matches.
There is the problem with Read, as there was with Ramps and Hick, that county runs have not previously predicted international ones so scoring lots of them, impressive though that is in a way, is of limited value to the selectors in deciding on a recall.

Ambrose might be criticised for streaky runs, I suppose but the thing is that he's scored an awful lot more of them and under severe pressure. His keeping has been good, so I don't see much of a case for recalling Read there, even if his keeping is significantly better. If he fails over the next series or two then Prior is probably better placed than anyone to take over, although his keeping really would need to have improved and that may be hard to be confident of.
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Old 6th July 2008, 00:14   #78
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I don't really follow the senior pro argument, I'm afraid. Do you mean that bringing Read back in with a lot of experience of county cricket and a bit of failure with the bat in international cricket would enhance the side? Aside from the whole Read debate itself, I don't see that repeated Lions tours for players who've played several international games already offer much in the way of experience to that player.
To be honest I've forgotten who has been the Lions' keeper recently. Anyway enhancing that side is a minor concern compared to the main side, which Read would be able to enhance in keeping terms.
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If he [i.e. Ambrose] fails over the next series or two then Prior is probably better placed than anyone to take over, although his keeping really would need to have improved and that may be hard to be confident of.
I would imagine that to be very unlikely. It was a first for many years to drop an England keeper for not being good enough at keeping, and if it indicates a changing trend in priorities -- which after Jones "the juggler" etc. would be quite reasonable -- then Ambrose may be on trial most significantly (in a 6-batters team) regardless of his runs. England are hardly likely to conclude, about Ambrose, while Read etc. are available, "Oh well, he's not that much better at keeping than Prior, so given how many more runs Prior might give us, we'll revert to him." Having ditched the most recent batting specialist, if the compromise candidate turns out still to be not good enough at keeping, there's nowhere else to go but better keepers.
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Old 6th July 2008, 00:24   #79
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A) That's FS's opinion - if 30 year olds who have had a decent few games of international cricket have been picked previously, then I'm going to assume he thought they shouldn't have been. However -

B) Out of the examples, the only one who has had some games of international cricket is Lewis. And he's never been on a Lions tour.

Edit: Woah, very late there
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Old 6th July 2008, 00:28   #80
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Players for the next Lions tour ?
1 Denly
2 Horton
3 Godleman
4 Hildreth
5 Morgan
6 Patel
7 Read (c)
8 Bresnan
9 Kabir Ali
10 Woakes
11 Jones

12 Rashid
13 Lumb
14 Clare
Lumb?? English cricket would be in a pretty sorry state if that happened!
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