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Old 8th January 2009, 18:00   #21
ChivaIsDead
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There's no benefit in replacing a world-class batsman with a mediocre one, especially not when the next opportunity to reintroduce him to the swing of things is right on the cusp of an Ashes series. It's not as if there's anyone really pushing strongly from the outside to take Pietersen's place anyway, so there's literally no chance of him being dropped from the side.
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Old 8th January 2009, 18:09   #22
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The closest precedent I can think of would be Botham in '81. He was sacked, but I can't remember how the rest of the series went under a Middlesex captain.
We won .It was a famous series where we kept being crap and winning at the end .Im shocked you arent familiar with it
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Old 8th January 2009, 18:10   #23
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There's no benefit in replacing a world-class batsman with a mediocre one, especially not when the next opportunity to reintroduce him to the swing of things is right on the cusp of an Ashes series. It's not as if there's anyone really pushing strongly from the outside to take Pietersen's place anyway, so there's literally no chance of him being dropped from the side.
There is one benefit ,it will keep me laughing for weeks
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Old 8th January 2009, 23:57   #24
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There is one benefit ,it will keep me laughing for weeks
You do come out with some gems! I laughed out loud at that.
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Old 9th January 2009, 08:53   #25
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Speaking to Geoff Cook today they may released Mark Wood from Durham. He rates him but the kid has had an operation and maybe one too many bowlers on the books type deal.
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Old 9th January 2009, 09:39   #26
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We have managed to replace all those irreplaceable players of the past and if we had to live without KP then we would. The 'dressing room' has no reason to reproach itself , they didn't like his manoevrings, weren't impressed with his captaincy either, and said so. That's honesty. Meantime, KP is on safari in SA issuing him or me ultimatums to his employers and being surprised when his bluff was called! That is not the stuff that good captains and good team players are made of.
Hmm - yes and no.

It seems that half of those who support your position supported it anyway - This support was on the grounds that they just didn't like someone they'd never met - he was a foreigner and he had a public persona.
The other half just like a good going rumble, because it either sells the trash that they peddle, or it fits in with their doom laden view of our sporting abilities.

This mirrors exactly Fletcher's predicament.

The ''dressing room'' in England has always been a place riven with class and jealousy. Read the history of cricket. It was ever so. Every England captain who has committed their memoirs to print has highlighted this - I can quote examples. We only ever have an impression of unity when we win. When we fail, which inevitabley we do - and the reasons for this failure we can debate if you like - the agendas of those for whom winning is distinctly poor business come together in an unholy alliance - as they have here.
I digress.

My issues with these events are simple ones.
Pieterson was chosen as captain, not out of the blue or from left field, he came as a package. He was a known quantity. He might or might not - because we don't really know- have been many things, but he was a winner. Pieterson wanted to win - he saw the coach as being an obstacle to that end and he approached this problem in a simplistic, non british [small cast intentional] fashion. His first mistake. He submitted his thoughts on this issue for publication - these thoughts were vetted and allowed to pass. Why?

If this was an oversight then the system is *****. If this was not an oversight then the system is ***** and corrupt - because he was allowed to do something which made his position untenable. Poor advice or manipulation of a naive young man - either it looks very bad and smacks of someone, or a body of somebody's, being totally incompetent, duplicitous, or both.

So now instead of us having a brilliant player who could conceivably be an all time giant we have a potentially betrayed bitter young man. Here we go again. This is why we have no brilliant players, nor ever will have, because we will not as Reeves and Mortimer would say ''let it lie''

We seem to want our great players to be modest self effacing young Corinthians - young Cowdreys who are decent chaps with pedigree score a ton at lords then give an interview thanking everyone and saying how lucky we were- this is Boys own fantasy because it is never going to happen. This is 2009 not 1900.
These young men have never seen war to give them a greater perspective on life as did Hutton or Miller they live and breath the sport in a rarefied closeted small group - they have no real view on anything outside cricket. It is a wise observation that CLR James made when he said ''what do they know of cricket who only cricket know'' But we ask the questions anyway and are disappointed when they come up as short.

Personally I love cricket because I want to see great cricket - it is a performance of excellence on the field - the bar, the bedroom, the political hustings, the egos, are irrelevant to me. But not to those who wish to prove something else. So has it been here.
KP has been set up either by design or by negligence.
Either he has been set up or English Cricket has the first ever recorded case of corporate Münchhausen's Disease - or as we are asked to describe it now ''Extreme Factitious Disorder'' There is no other explanation.
That is my personal and professional opinion.
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Old 9th January 2009, 17:42   #27
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I have no problems with Pietersen's ego as a player and batsman. I like others believed/hoped he could bring to the captaincy his desire to win while at the same time subduing the ego when dealing with his team mates, coaches and bosses. It didn't take long for things to start to unravel once he tasted defeat. Not just with the coaches, but player selection - having backed Harmison to the hilt and luring him out of one-day retirement, he had to resort to dropping him from both team.

Perhaps the ECB were naive in hoping that Pietersen would change his nature, and those of us who backed him now feel a bit let down. But he is who he is, and now we know.
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So now instead of us having a brilliant player who could conceivably be an all time giant we have a potentially betrayed bitter young man. Here we go again.
Pietersen has been "betrayed" (as he sees it) before, and I doubt if he'll feel bitter for very long. The qualities that brought his downfall will be the ones that carry him through the next few weeks and I have no doubt that as a batsman he will get better and better.
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Old 9th January 2009, 19:54   #28
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I have no problems with Pietersen's ego as a player and batsman. I like others believed/hoped he could bring to the captaincy his desire to win while at the same time subduing the ego when dealing with his team mates, coaches and bosses. It didn't take long for things to start to unravel once he tasted defeat. Not just with the coaches, but player selection - having backed Harmison to the hilt and luring him out of one-day retirement, he had to resort to dropping him from both team.

Perhaps the ECB were naive in hoping that Pietersen would change his nature, and those of us who backed him now feel a bit let down. But he is who he is, and now we know.
Pietersen has been "betrayed" (as he sees it) before, and I doubt if he'll feel bitter for very long. The qualities that brought his downfall will be the ones that carry him through the next few weeks and I have no doubt that as a batsman he will get better and better.

Do we? I mean really do we?
It seems to me we have a collection of assumptions piled on top of a foundation of received information. We have made a character judgment without any evidence or more worryingly any attempt at understanding.

My second issue is around the Pyhrric victory that he seems to have achieved. Moores is sacked - so was he wrong or not? Is this whole mess just about style and protocol? How unbelievabley pompous we are if this is the case.
This surely makes us a nation of jobsworths.
If that is the way of this thing, then I would contend that our game is being governed by people who's only purpose is to hang onto its coatails. They have nothing to offer but inadequate understanding and a constant desire to meddle - they do this only because they can.

This I believe is about power not results. I do hope that the 'qualities'' which are going to bring about his swift recovery actually exist, because if they don't he is lost - and the game is poorer - more specifically our game is poorer.
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People from Yorkshire are very proud of their underachievement. You see these old fellas in the pub going: 'I've had a great life, me. Gone nowhere. Done **** all. Aye.
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Old 5th December 2010, 11:56   #29
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I had to go back a long way to find a thread about Pietersen as a player rather than peripheral nonsense. In the light of his return to form and his brilliant double century I thought it well worth bumping. I have been most impressed with this knock. He has brought the impetus to the innings that he was predicted to do yesterday, but batted very sensibly in getting to his landmarks. After 18 matches without a three figure score he wasn't going to flirt with danger this time. I think this is the best innings I have seen from him, whatever is said about the quality of bowling.

His post play interview was also very heartening. He spoke about the help he got from Graham Ford, his early mentor, when he was in South Africa before the Ashes tour. Most importantly, learning that once you get into 5th gear there is the option to drop a gear or two when the situation calls for it, something he admits to not having done in the past. The phrase "that's the way I play" was significant by its absence.

So, a triumphant return to form and indications that from now on he will want to build on good scores and not be distracted (too often!) by the temptation to show off and risk giving it away.


Last edited by Michelle Fivefer : 5th December 2010 at 14:25. Reason: typo
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Old 5th December 2010, 11:58   #30
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Here's hoping he kicks on and gets the scores his talent deserves.
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I'm fully aware of his thinking, which merely underlines the point that he's an idiot.
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Old 5th December 2010, 12:05   #31
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Pietersen certainly has the chance of beating Strauss to become the player who has scored the most test centuries for England
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Old 5th December 2010, 13:01   #32
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Except Strauss hasn't beat the record yet.
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Speaking to Geoff Cook today they may released Mark Wood from Durham. He rates him but the kid has had an operation and maybe one too many bowlers on the books type deal.
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Old 5th December 2010, 13:46   #33
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I had to go back a long way to find a thread about Pietersen as a player rather than peripheral nonsense. In the light of his return to form and his brilliant double century I thought it well worth bumping. I have been most impressed with this knock. He has brought the impetus to the innings that he was predicted to do yesterday, but batted very sensibly in getting to his landmarks. After 18 matches without a three figure score he wasn't going to flirt with danger this time. I think this is the best innings I have seen from him, whatever is said about the quality of bowling.

His post play interview was also very heartening. He spoke about the help he got from Graham Ford, his early mentor, when he was in South Africa before the Ashes tour. Most importantly, learning that once you get into 5th gear there is the option to drop a gear or two when the situation calls for it, something he admits to not having done in the past. The phrase "that's they way I play" was significant by its absence.

So, a triumphant return to form and indications that from now on he will want to build on good scores and not be distracted (too often!) by the temptation to show off and risk giving it away.

Agreed.

Remember the frustration we had with the highlighted phrase in Cardiff? He made 80 or so and seemed contented with that, whereas Ponting made an additional 100 runs and was gutted that he didn't go on to make a double....and here we are now.
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Old 5th December 2010, 13:53   #34
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The phrase "that's the way I play" was significant by its absence.
Absolutely, long may it continue. Very encouraged by that interview, along with the innings itself of course. Only time will tell but I hope that work with Ford marks a watershed in his career - the development of a real cricket brain, to go with the incredible talent.
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Old 5th December 2010, 20:03   #35
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The phrase "that's the way I play" was significant by its absence.
The sounds of pennies dropping could be heard all over the world.

This innings crystallises the frustration of many of us over previous innings in the past. Those innings of 90 / 110 were, to coin a phrase, good but not good enough, yet his supporters on this board would not see it and any criticism of getting out when set having scored a few would be met with scorn to the poster (I know!).

Hopefully those posters will take their lead from their god and realise that world class (their words not mine) players need to play world class innings and this one was just that. This was the first innings in the interests of the team rather than in Kevin Pietersen that I have seen him play. More please.
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Old 6th December 2010, 00:53   #36
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This was the first innings in the interests of the team rather than in Kevin Pietersen that I have seen him play. More please.
LOL!
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Old 6th December 2010, 08:00   #37
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The biggest test for KP will be to harness his new found powers against a decent attack. Even if he played in a cavalier fashion it was hard to get out against the worst Aussie attack in living memory, compounded by the hostile conditions. The few wickets taken since day one illustrate this point well.

Also interesting to hear KP talking about rising to the big occasion, liking the big stage. Was surprised he didn't consider facing the world's #1 ranked bowler on more challenging pitches last summer as a great challenge.

Australia is now ranked #5 in the world and even our despondent fans don't rate us as a cricket nation atm. Our stocks are at their lowest since the mid-80s.
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Old 6th December 2010, 11:43   #38
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The biggest test for KP will be to harness his new found powers against a decent attack. Even if he played in a cavalier fashion it was hard to get out against the worst Aussie attack in living memory, compounded by the hostile conditions. The few wickets taken since day one illustrate this point well.

Also interesting to hear KP talking about rising to the big occasion, liking the big stage. Was surprised he didn't consider facing the world's #1 ranked bowler on more challenging pitches last summer as a great challenge.

Australia is now ranked #5 in the world and even our despondent fans don't rate us as a cricket nation atm. Our stocks are at their lowest since the mid-80s.
To be fair he was only answering the question. Hussain suggested he loved the big stage and KP agreed that he did. Plus he did emphasise that it was all about the team, not personal glory.

The Sky commentators, in fact most pundits, have never seen KP's slump as more than a blip - a blip lasting a mere 18 test matches and 27 innings. Well, that's not quite right, as he has made a number of big 50s in that time; but for someone in the habit of scoring a century something like evey 6 or 7 innings his lack of form was rather more serious than that, and the oft-repeated phrase by his admirers that "a big score was just round the corner" began to sound rather hollow. The pundits overlooked his failure to impose himself on Pakistan and deemed his lack of a century against Bangladesh as in keeping with his love of the big stage and more worthy challenges. Notwithstanding that this was the perfect opportunity for KP to get himself into form and make a big score prior to those bigger challenges to come, commentators such as Simon Hughes continued to say that making runs against lesser teams was irrelevant. In fact he said that very thing only the other day, before he knew that a double ton was just round the corner. He's a bowler of course. I would say that it's essential for batsmen to keep the habit of batting and scoring runs whoever you're playing. It's also an insult to your team-mates trying their best against all opposition, to the fans who come to watch, and to the players on the opposing side finding that the opposition can't be bothered to do their best against them.

However, as I say, this all comes from the pundits, and I don't recall KP ever saying he's not interested in anything but the big stage. It just happens maybe that he has unconsciously switched off and not done as well as he should have against minor teams. I do believe that in the last year he has been trying his hardest to recover that elusive match-winning form against all teams.

Nasser Hussain got a bit carried away commentating when KP reached 200. on commentary. "Pietersen really is a big match player. When England needed their star batsman, he delivered!!!!!!" He's our star batsman once again, but over the last 18 months he hasn't delivered and it's been left to the other apparently less starry batsmen to produce the goods, which on the whole they have.

Anyway, thank goodness Pietersen seems to be back on course now, and we look forward to more of the same in this series and in the future.
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Old 6th December 2010, 12:08   #39
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Apparently he's been working harder than ever so top form would eventually come and the elusive ton was bound to be made sooner, rather than later.

Nonetheless it does grate a bit when you hear or read about the notions that he's made the runs because it's against Australia and he rises to the occasion. Even without a huge contribution from him, England would be still bossing this test match.

Maybe the runs are flowing again, partly because the attack is very poor, the weather's been hot and the pitches have been flat. It's as simple as that, not just about his focus being greater because of the opponent. After all Australia is a middle-ranked team and not a very good one. These are hardly eighteen carat runs. Bangladeshi spinners would certainly have the skills to worry him more than any of Australia's.

As for his philosophies etcetera, he can be a tad contradictory.

Within weeks, I've heard him refer to his clown-like technique and liking for batting with freedom. And an interview done for television here, he explained away his getting out in the 90s, or once he's set, as just being him and he happily accepts it. He came out today and said it 'does his head in.' Allan Lamb said yesterday that he's possibly the hardest working cricketer he's ever come across.

Interesting though that the likes of Atherton and Hussain muse that he comes to the fore when England most need him. You think they could have done with some more runs against the Pakistanis when they were troubling the batsmen in favourable conditions, and at times against Steyn and co. in SA, especially given that Steyn is the top ranked quick in the world. Surely that's the sort of challenge KP relishes, not bashing up on rubbish bowlers like Bollinger, Siddle and Doherty.
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Old 6th December 2010, 12:12   #40
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Apparently he's been working harder than ever so top form would eventually come and the elusive ton was bound to be made sooner, rather than later.

Nonetheless it does grate a bit when you hear or read about the notions that he's made the runs because it's against Australia and he rises to the occasion. Even without a huge contribution from him, England would be still bossing this test match.

Maybe the runs are flowing again, partly because the attack is very poor, the weather's been hot and the pitches have been flat. It's as simple as that, not just about his focus being greater because of the opponent. After all Australia is a middle-ranked team and not a very good one. These are hardly eighteen carat runs. Bangladeshi spinners would certainly have the skills to worry him more than any of Australia's.

As for his philosophies etcetera, he can be a tad contradictory.

Within weeks, I've heard him refer to his clown-like technique and liking for batting with freedom. And an interview done for television here, he explained away his getting out in the 90s, or once he's set, as just being him and he happily accepts it. He came out today and said it 'does his head in.' Allan Lamb said yesterday that he's possibly the hardest working cricketer he's ever come across.
Doesnt grate with me unless he said it. If he didnt its just easy media waffle.

If the reason was the occasion and the oppo, he'd have done better in South Africa than he did.
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