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Old 11th December 2010, 09:29   #81
Michelle Fivefer
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The quality of the attack is irrelevant. In the past Pietersen has declined to score runs against weak attacks, preferring, allegedly, to save himself for the bigger challenges. Having gone through a period of not scoring runs against anybody, whatever the challenge, he has knuckled down and got himself a big score. It's not just about the quality of the bowling, it's a test of patience and concentration.
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Old 11th December 2010, 09:53   #82
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Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
The quality of the attack is irrelevant. In the past Pietersen has declined to score runs against weak attacks, preferring, allegedly, to save himself for the bigger challenges. Having gone through a period of not scoring runs against anybody, whatever the challenge, he has knuckled down and got himself a big score. It's not just about the quality of the bowling, it's a test of patience and concentration.
Of course it's relevant. Which is why you contradict yourself by then saying it's not just about the quality of the attack. I agree, which is why it's only one of my points.

Against a poor quality attack there is less need to take risks for a guy like kp who likes to bat quickly (and did here). And when you do take risks, the deliveries are so poor that it's a fairly low risk, which is why kp was able to ride his luck in this innings.

If all you wanted to do was apply so arbitrary test of patience, then you'd have considered kp's previous big scores against Bangladesh and WIs.
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Old 11th December 2010, 10:27   #83
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Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
The quality of the attack is irrelevant. In the past Pietersen has declined to score runs against weak attacks, preferring, allegedly, to save himself for the bigger challenges. Having gone through a period of not scoring runs against anybody, whatever the challenge, he has knuckled down and got himself a big score. It's not just about the quality of the bowling, it's a test of patience and concentration.
I would have thought that's the nail on the head about this innings. Hes been out of form for so long that, rather than any change in approach/attitude, he just made sure he cashed in when, at last, things went his way. Its not as if this is the first time hes gone on either - of his 17 100s, 6 have resulted in scores of 150 or more. Contrast with Strauss 3 from 19.

BTW where does this declining to score runs v minnows come from? His career average is 49. He averages 68 V Bangladesh and 58 V West Indies, the two weakest attacks out there.
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Old 11th December 2010, 11:07   #84
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Of course it's relevant. Which is why you contradict yourself by then saying it's not just about the quality of the attack. I agree, which is why it's only one of my points.

Against a poor quality attack there is less need to take risks for a guy like kp who likes to bat quickly (and did here). And when you do take risks, the deliveries are so poor that it's a fairly low risk, which is why kp was able to ride his luck in this innings.

If all you wanted to do was apply so arbitrary test of patience, then you'd have considered kp's previous big scores against Bangladesh and WIs.
Where do I contradict myself? Of course it's easier to score runs when the attack is weaker and the surface flatter. But to repeat myself, to make a very big score the batsman needs the resources of patience and concentration which have nothing to do with the quality of the bowling, it's an inner battle. Against a high quality attack in a crucial match these qualities will come to the fore as all depends on the batsman staying in and making runs, and less able batsmen will possibly fail the task. In less testing conditions the factors of patience and concentration are necessary to stop the batsman being undone by too much contempt for the bowler.

This discussion is moving miles away from where it started, which saddens me when all I wanted to say was that Pietersen played an excellent innings at Adelaide that showed him back to his best and with a new attitude. Somehow the debate has turned into an attack on my judgment and on anyone who dares to suggest that there has been an improvement. I see the difficulty, however. To agree would be to admit that the great Kevin Pietersen actually had aspects of his game that needed to improve.
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Old 11th December 2010, 17:47   #85
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I side with MF and Cesar here. This was an innings of composure and quality. Compared to other big scores, this was a different innings. One or two dodgy shots early on but that was serene compared to say Oval 2005. I saw most of it, not all 'cos I dozed off, but for most of it you could have been watching a Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting or several other greats of my time. I do not compare him with them, I say that innings was comparable and one they would have been proud of. KP punished the bad ball mercilessly and looked rock against the good ball. No dodgy singles to get off the mark, no trying to flay the bowler into WA just to bring up 100 in style, just a ruthless and merciless dismantling of the opposition bowling. I remember Trescothick, of whom I was also not a fan in his early days playing a similar innings in SA. Loads of lazy 30s and fluffy 50s but suddenly produced a sublime innings. All of a sudden I am convinced KP can and should become one of the bats in my Hall of Fame!
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That's fair enough Charlie and a good post. But when you say oval 2005, I think of lords 2005. Much as I've always despised KP (sorry to ruin your excuse Cesar), that was when I saw that KP will be one of the best bats of this era. The years since them have confirmed this to me, much more than a big score against the worst aus attack in decades in very good batting conditions. .
In comparison to the Oval 158, yes, this was far more controlled but as Kim and slop point out, that isn't his only other test hundred.
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Old 11th December 2010, 18:10   #86
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Where do I contradict myself? Of course it's easier to score runs when the attack is weaker and the surface flatter. But to repeat myself, to make a very big score the batsman needs the resources of patience and concentration which have nothing to do with the quality of the bowling, it's an inner battle. Against a high quality attack in a crucial match these qualities will come to the fore as all depends on the batsman staying in and making runs, and less able batsmen will possibly fail the task. In less testing conditions the factors of patience and concentration are necessary to stop the batsman being undone by too much contempt for the bowler.
The kind of contempt which would see a batsman score really quickly, say at almost a run a ball after his ton when set, for example?

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This discussion is moving miles away from where it started, which saddens me when all I wanted to say was that Pietersen played an excellent innings at Adelaide that showed him back to his best and with a new attitude. Somehow the debate has turned into an attack on my judgment and on anyone who dares to suggest that there has been an improvement. I see the difficulty, however. To agree would be to admit that the great Kevin Pietersen actually had aspects of his game that needed to improve.
Yep, that's definitely the line to take in an argument against slop, who actively dislikes Pietersen.
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Old 11th December 2010, 18:36   #87
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The kind of contempt which would see a batsman score really quickly, say at almost a run a ball after his ton when set, for example?



Yep, that's definitely the line to take in an argument against slop, who actively dislikes Pietersen.
Well obviously that line was directed at the rest of you.
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Old 11th December 2010, 18:58   #88
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Seems to me that Pietersen's latest innings was more mature and less risky than many of his earlier ones - that's based both on what I saw of it (and earlier ones) and other people's reports - but it's one innings, which makes it a bit premature to hail him for a new attitude from now on. He did appear to select his shots better than on many previous occasions. The question is whether old habits will die hard.
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Old 11th December 2010, 19:05   #89
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Is that the Vaughan you've been slagging off incessantly until he said something backing your opinion or a different one? The commentators, like a lot of posters on here, seem to like to generate a narrative, rather than go with the evidence of what actually happened and what they saw.
Well spotted.

I think he is a dreadful commentator with his glottal stopping, lack of knowledge of the history of the game and his girly giggling. That doesn't mean he wasn't a wonderful batsman and cricketer who carries valid opinions on the modern game.
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Old 11th December 2010, 19:06   #90
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Seems to me that Pietersen's latest innings was more mature and less risky than many of his earlier ones - that's based both on what I saw of it (and earlier ones) and other people's reports - but it's one innings, which makes it a bit premature to hail him for a new attitude from now on. He did appear to select his shots better than on many previous occasions. The question is whether old habits will die hard.
Totally agree.
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Old 11th December 2010, 19:09   #91
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Stop trying to find quotes and start thinking for yourself.
You really are a star. Unfortunately not the brightest one in the firmament!
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Old 11th December 2010, 20:14   #92
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Where do I contradict myself? Of course it's easier to score runs when the attack is weaker and the surface flatter. But to repeat myself, to make a very big score the batsman needs the resources of patience and concentration which have nothing to do with the quality of the bowling, it's an inner battle. Against a high quality attack in a crucial match these qualities will come to the fore as all depends on the batsman staying in and making runs, and less able batsmen will possibly fail the task. In less testing conditions the factors of patience and concentration are necessary to stop the batsman being undone by too much contempt for the bowler.

This discussion is moving miles away from where it started, which saddens me when all I wanted to say was that Pietersen played an excellent innings at Adelaide that showed him back to his best and with a new attitude. Somehow the debate has turned into an attack on my judgment and on anyone who dares to suggest that there has been an improvement. I see the difficulty, however. To agree would be to admit that the great Kevin Pietersen actually had aspects of his game that needed to improve.
It's a minor point but you contradict yourself by saying that it's not relevant and then saying it's not the only factor, implying that it's one of several factors, and therefore relevant. You then let yourself down by mimicking cesar in assuming anyone who disagrees is doing so put of some blind faith, rather than acknowledging the facts in the posts you reply to. It's unusually wum-like for you.

Obviously, KP is improving:
A) he was out of form. When you're back in form you play better. I would have thought that was obvious.
B) he's been playing cricket. Naturally his game evolves and will get better. Again, obvious.

Where you go wrong is assuming this is down to some new attitude, based on one innings. An attitude that somehow didn't exist when he scored all those other centuries, several over 150 and one over 200. Apprently it takes great concentration, an inner battle some might say, to score a big innings, but this only applies, what, post 2009?
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Old 11th December 2010, 22:30   #93
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You really are a star. Unfortunately not the brightest one in the firmament!
That will be a no, you're not interested in discussing the actual innings, will it?
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Old 12th December 2010, 00:20   #94
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In comparison to the Oval 158, yes, this was far more controlled but as Kim and slop point out, that isn't his only other test hundred.

I cannot disagree with any of that FS but what MF, Cesar and myself are trying to say (pardon me if I have got the names wrong or misinterpreted their feelings) is that I have never before seen KP disassemble a bowling attack in that fashion. I have seen great batmen do it. He is not (yet?) of that calibre. That innings though leads me to believe he could rival the likes of Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting over the next few 3 years. I have doubted this since he came into the team in 2005 but now I believe. (Exits to strains of "Amazing Grace" ).
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Old 12th December 2010, 01:39   #95
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I cannot disagree with any of that FS but what MF, Cesar and myself are trying to say (pardon me if I have got the names wrong or misinterpreted their feelings) is that I have never before seen KP disassemble a bowling attack in that fashion. I have seen great batmen do it. He is not (yet?) of that calibre. That innings though leads me to believe he could rival the likes of Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting over the next few 3 years. I have doubted this since he came into the team in 2005 but now I believe. (Exits to strains of "Amazing Grace" ).
Except the mistake you make is calling those bowlers an attack.

Popular consensus has it the worst attack that has represented Australia in two decades. KP did come in when they were already on their knees.
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Old 12th December 2010, 09:41   #96
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I cannot disagree with any of that FS but what MF, Cesar and myself are trying to say (pardon me if I have got the names wrong or misinterpreted their feelings) is that I have never before seen KP disassemble a bowling attack in that fashion. I have seen great batmen do it. He is not (yet?) of that calibre. That innings though leads me to believe he could rival the likes of Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting over the next few 3 years. I have doubted this since he came into the team in 2005 but now I believe. (Exits to strains of "Amazing Grace" ).
Unfortunately this somewhat basic concept will never be accepted by some and I can't understand why when KP acknowledges it himself. Hey ho.
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Old 13th December 2010, 00:15   #97
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Except the mistake you make is calling those bowlers an attack.

Popular consensus has it the worst attack that has represented Australia in two decades. KP did come in when they were already on their knees.
he came in late because Trott couldn't get out however hard he tried. When he finally did come in he was in a strop through waiting so long. That may have helped.
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Old 13th December 2010, 01:01   #98
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Except the mistake you make is calling those bowlers an attack.

Popular consensus has it the worst attack that has represented Australia in two decades. KP did come in when they were already on their knees.
In 20 years possibly, but I'm old enough to remember Bob Massey, Ray Bright, Wayne Sleep and the like. You are fortunate enough to have had two of the best bowlers of all time in the last 20 years. And let's not underestimate some of the very good one's. Some of your batsmen made their name against mediocre attacks, England or otherwise, yet few Australians would agree with me that Taylor and Slater were better than Hayden and Langer or that Healey was a better bat than Gilchrist, solely on the quality of the opposition they faced.
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Old 13th December 2010, 07:51   #99
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In 20 years possibly, but I'm old enough to remember Bob Massey, Ray Bright, Wayne Sleep and the like. You are fortunate enough to have had two of the best bowlers of all time in the last 20 years. And let's not underestimate some of the very good one's. Some of your batsmen made their name against mediocre attacks, England or otherwise, yet few Australians would agree with me that Taylor and Slater were better than Hayden and Langer or that Healey was a better bat than Gilchrist, solely on the quality of the opposition they faced.
No, you have a fair argument there and in fact it's not only the attacks they face but also the fact that Warnie and co. doing so well meant that they batted under less pressure than many of their peers, predecessors and successors etc. Some relatively average players are sometimes made to look better by dint of batting in great teams. BTW, not totally sure about Taylor though, very good bowling tended to sort him out.
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Old 13th December 2010, 08:57   #100
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In 20 years possibly, but I'm old enough to remember Bob Massey, Ray Bright, Wayne Sleep and the like. You are fortunate enough to have had two of the best bowlers of all time in the last 20 years. And let's not underestimate some of the very good one's. Some of your batsmen made their name against mediocre attacks, England or otherwise, yet few Australians would agree with me that Taylor and Slater were better than Hayden and Langer or that Healey was a better bat than Gilchrist, solely on the quality of the opposition they faced.
They may have made their names that way, but you remember the innings against decent opposition. I remember Lara's centuries vs Aus rather than his 400. As someone who didn't grow up with the Ashes, I remember Hayden standing alone in India, or putting Donald and pollock to the sword, not filling his boots against a below par England bowling attack or breaking the record vs Zimbabwe.
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