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Old 1st August 2007, 12:46   #81
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Depends what you regard as important. Bell is meant to be in the side as a front line batsman, however by batting at six it implies (erroneously I would add) that he's being protected from the fast bowlers and the new ball. Colly is a scrapper, not a player imbued with latent talent but one who makes a fight of lower order runs. It's somewhat hard on him, but that's really what his role in the side should be.
I do think that Colly has a better chance of amending his game to hit out with the tailenders. Still, there is an issue of pecking order. If Colly is moved down it would look like a step on the ladder out of the side. In fact, given Strauss' making a score in each of the last three tests, albeit no ton and Colly's ODI captaincy plus score in the last test, Bell really looks like the man for the drop at present.
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Old 1st August 2007, 12:52   #82
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with a tour to Sri Lanka on the horizon I think Bell's place is in serious doubt. Flintoff will play if fit and Bell looks a bit of a gooseberry against class spinners wheras Colly is much better against them
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Old 1st August 2007, 12:59   #83
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with a tour to Sri Lanka on the horizon I think Bell's place is in serious doubt. Flintoff will play if fit and Bell looks a bit of a gooseberry against class spinners wheras Colly is much better against them
Someone will get injured before Sri Lanka.
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Old 1st August 2007, 13:19   #84
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with a tour to Sri Lanka on the horizon I think Bell's place is in serious doubt. Flintoff will play if fit and Bell looks a bit of a gooseberry against class spinners wheras Colly is much better against them
I don't know where you get the idea that Bell is useless against spin. He may have struggled against Warne in the early days but has gone on to play spin bowlers very well.
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Old 1st August 2007, 13:24   #85
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I don't know where you get the idea that Bell is useless against spin. He may have struggled against Warne in the early days but has gone on to play spin bowlers very well.
Also does anybody forget that Flintoff has actually been pretty ropey as a no 6 since the ashes 05 and has a terrible record against Murali in particular.
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Old 1st August 2007, 13:29   #86
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Also does anybody forget that Flintoff has actually been pretty ropey as a no 6 since the ashes 05 and has a terrible record against Murali in particular.
True enough but his bowling is too good, as long as he's fit, for him to be left out. Then the question is whether he can play as one of four bowlers, which I doubt. I think the best balance will probably be Flintoff, Rashid, Obliquearse, Hoggard, Panesar and there's a little batting there too then. Either Tremlett or Harmison could come in for Obliquearse or, less likely, Hoggard. It's better to have five bowlers in Sri Lanka anyway, I think, given the heat even without concerns about Flintoff as one of four bowlers.
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Old 1st August 2007, 13:31   #87
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Depends what you regard as important. Bell is meant to be in the side as a front line batsman, however by batting at six it implies (erroneously I would add) that he's being protected from the fast bowlers and the new ball. Colly is a scrapper, not a player imbued with latent talent but one who makes a fight of lower order runs. It's somewhat hard on him, but that's really what his role in the side should be.
Bell has made centuries at 6 when he has been accompanied by a batsman for the main part of the innings. He has got to the hundred with the help of a couple of tailenders but when left with just the tail early on, as happened a couple of times in this series, he has no opportunity to build an innings and is forced to spend most of the time protecting the tail or going for some risky runs himself.

He is only in that position by force of circumstance, and it is not something he has done regularly in his formative years in county cricket. It is very hard on someone who by rights should be batting up the order to have to play out of position but still demonstrate to the selectors that he deserves to keep his place. In effect, they are saying to him, do your best at six and if you do well enough we'll think about moving you up the order if a vacancy occurs.
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:30   #88
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Where does the idea you need 5 bowlers in SL come from?
The 4 vs 5 arguements are exactly the same in SL as elsewhere. The question is (as always), can Monty bowl enough overs to make 4 possible. The fact that it may be 2 seamers and 2 spinners makes no odds at all.
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:38   #89
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Where does the idea you need 5 bowlers in SL come from?
The 4 vs 5 arguements are exactly the same in SL as elsewhere. The question is (as always), can Monty bowl enough overs to make 4 possible. The fact that it may be 2 seamers and 2 spinners makes no odds at all.

So youd be happy with your first change being a spinner?
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:46   #90
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What happened to Bell's bowling? I remember him bowling some pretty tidy seamers, and by bowling on helpful surfaces/under helpful conditions he was at one point near the top of the national averages. Nowadays I have seen Warks have up to eight different bowlers in an innings without Bell turning his arm.
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:51   #91
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What happened to Bell's bowling? I remember him bowling some pretty tidy seamers, and by bowling on helpful surfaces/under helpful conditions he was at one point near the top of the national averages. Nowadays I have seen Warks have up to eight different bowlers in an innings without Bell turning his arm.

He bowled a lot in 2004 - though that was mainly because we had a poor attack and Knight compensated by giving everyone a go but, since getting into the England set up, its gone. He was as good as Collingwood and might have been a decent 6th one day bowler.
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:53   #92
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So youd be happy with your first change being a spinner?
If they are one of my best 4 bowlers for the conditions, yes. Australia did it in England for several tests with Warne and May. India may do it in the next test.

The two best seamers plus Colly and Bell and the two best spinners. The whole point is that you would expect your spinners to bowl 25-30 overs each a day. If they are not good enough there is no point. That leaves say 30 overs for your seamers. Even in SL a seamer should manage 15 a day.

My other point would be they have to be proper front line spinners, or its pointless. No Dalrymple or Yardy. Monty and another penetrating spinner. I would suggest Rashid is the only option on FC form. He takes wickets, although he has been more expensive this season.
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Old 1st August 2007, 16:14   #93
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He bowled a lot in 2004 - though that was mainly because we had a poor attack and Knight compensated by giving everyone a go but, since getting into the England set up, its gone. He was as good as Collingwood and might have been a decent 6th one day bowler.
It's a shame he has stopped bowling - they used to be quite full with a bit of late swing as I recall. Ganguly has shown how valuable these fiddly bowlers can be under the right conditions, and over the years Collingwood has benefitted hugely from the fact he can bowl.
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Old 1st August 2007, 16:29   #94
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It's a shame he has stopped bowling - they used to be quite full with a bit of late swing as I recall. Ganguly has shown how valuable these fiddly bowlers can be under the right conditions, and over the years Collingwood has benefitted hugely from the fact he can bowl.
Its not by choice - hes pretty frustrated by it, I believe. Problem when he plays for Warwickshire is that we have a whole team who can bowl - mostly badly - the Maddys, Trotts, Troughtons etc..Generally play with 10 who have FC wickets to their name.
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Old 1st August 2007, 16:51   #95
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Does anyone at Warwickshire let Bell do what he wants? He wasn't selected for an important semi final, he isn't allowed to Bowl anymore. Maybe he should take up Warne's non-too-subtle offer to joins Hampshire.
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Old 1st August 2007, 18:12   #96
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Does anyone at Warwickshire let Bell do what he wants? He wasn't selected for an important semi final, he isn't allowed to Bowl anymore. Maybe he should take up Warne's non-too-subtle offer to joins Hampshire.

"Warwickshire had hoped to give a Championship debut to their highlyregarded all-rounder Chris Woakes as a replacement for Streak, but they had to withdraw him from their provisional squad. Woakes is due to play for England Under-19s this weekend and the ECB have insisted that he report for duty on Friday. Warwickshire's attempts to persuade the ECB to allow Woakes to delay his arrival until the end of the Durham game were rejected.".

ECB refuse to allow Van Jaarsfeld to Kolpak for us

ECB refuse permission for Worcs t20 game to be swircted to Edgbaston.

I make that ECB 3 Warwickshire 0.

Lesson - dont mess with the ECB
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Old 1st August 2007, 18:26   #97
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"Warwickshire had hoped to give a Championship debut to their highlyregarded all-rounder Chris Woakes as a replacement for Streak, but they had to withdraw him from their provisional squad. Woakes is due to play for England Under-19s this weekend and the ECB have insisted that he report for duty on Friday. Warwickshire's attempts to persuade the ECB to allow Woakes to delay his arrival until the end of the Durham game were rejected.".

ECB refuse to allow Van Jaarsfeld to Kolpak for us

ECB refuse permission for Worcs t20 game to be swircted to Edgbaston.

I make that ECB 3 Warwickshire 0.

Lesson - dont mess with the ECB
To be fair, I think only Rashid has been given a sick note out of these U-19 games.
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Old 1st August 2007, 18:35   #98
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To be fair, I think only Rashid has been given a sick note out of these U-19 games.
Please dont ruin a good conspiracy theory!
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Old 1st August 2007, 18:48   #99
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I do think that Colly has a better chance of amending his game to hit out with the tailenders. Still, there is an issue of pecking order. If Colly is moved down it would look like a step on the ladder out of the side. In fact, given Strauss' making a score in each of the last three tests, albeit no ton and Colly's ODI captaincy plus score in the last test, Bell really looks like the man for the drop at present.
I agree about the pecking order. It may sound harsh, but I'd be looking at the ICC Test rankings - Colly is in 14th, Bell in 20-something spot.

Do you want to replace someone up the order, Ian? Vaughan is below you, but is the captain and making up for lost time due to previous injury, so you'll just have to bide your time at number 6 and produce the weight of runs that make your claim irresistible.

If there was another injury to a batsman, and Shah or Bopara were to come into the side, then Bell should move up and the newcomer bat at 6.
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Old 1st August 2007, 23:09   #100
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I agree about the pecking order. It may sound harsh, but I'd be looking at the ICC Test rankings - Colly is in 14th, Bell in 20-something spot.

Do you want to replace someone up the order, Ian? Vaughan is below you, but is the captain and making up for lost time due to previous injury, so you'll just have to bide your time at number 6 and produce the weight of runs that make your claim irresistible.

If there was another injury to a batsman, and Shah or Bopara were to come into the side, then Bell should move up and the newcomer bat at 6.
Colly is still riding on the back of his double hundred in Australia, which shot him up the rankings. Despite a few indifferent games he has stayed up around the 14-16 mark. Bell, Cook and Strauss are now huddled together in the rankings, waiting for someone to break free - in either direction!
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