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Old 22nd October 2013, 17:17   #41
Sir Virgs and Zamora
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We do know that jones was not trusted to bowl the final morning at edgbasten. When the going got tough there it was harmy and fred bowling. He did very well in his final three innings for England but let's not forget edgbasten.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 17:41   #42
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We do know that jones was not trusted to bowl the final morning at edgbasten. When the going got tough there it was harmy and fred bowling. He did very well in his final three innings for England but let's not forget edgbasten.
Well you seem to have forgotten how to spell it. Bit odd to decide that Jones can't have been that good because he wasn't chosen to bowl on a particular occasion, when the bowlers who bowled instead of him almost lost us the match, isn't it?
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Old 22nd October 2013, 23:09   #43
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Well you seem to have forgotten how to spell it. Bit odd to decide that Jones can't have been that good because he wasn't chosen to bowl on a particular occasion, when the bowlers who bowled instead of him almost lost us the match, isn't it?
You mean. He was not asked to bowl and other bowlers won the match then? At least jones made it exciting by dropping one!
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Old 23rd October 2013, 00:05   #44
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You mean. He was not asked to bowl and other bowlers won the match then? At least jones made it exciting by dropping one!
It was one hell of an exciting session but your argument appears to be that Jones can't have been such a good bowler because he wasn't involved in bowling at Warne, Lee and Kasper when they almost put on enough runs between them to win from dead and buried. It's not a terribly compelling or logical argument, is it?
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Old 23rd October 2013, 00:16   #45
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It was one hell of an exciting session but your argument appears to be that Jones can't have been such a good bowler because he wasn't involved in bowling at Warne, Lee and Kasper when they almost put on enough runs between them to win from dead and buried. It's not a terribly compelling or logical argument, is it?
We were desperate for a wicket and the only bowler not to bowl was jones. Please tell me what is not compelling?
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Old 23rd October 2013, 00:21   #46
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Should point out that if it was not for jones's batting then probably lose but that is not the point.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 00:47   #47
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We were desperate for a wicket and the only bowler not to bowl was jones. Please tell me what is not compelling?
The bit where Jones not bowling correlated with us not getting a wicket. The bit where Hoggard didn't bowl either? The bit where you're relying on a captaincy decision on one morning of a test in not even a full session as your only argument against the best bowler on either side in a series? Do you need more? The bit where his match figures were better than Harmison's? The bit where he got their top scoring batsman out in both innings, in the test you're using as your argument against him?
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Old 23rd October 2013, 14:09   #48
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McGrath's injury was clearly a pivotal moment in the series, more so than Harmison's spell at Lords. What that first innings did suggest though was that England had a bowling attack that could live with and even dominate the Aussie batsmen who, in years gone by, had put our bowlers to the sword time and time again. Even in the 2nd innings we might well have restricted them to a smaller target had our fielding been smarter (although we'd still have lost the test).
Yes, McGrath's injury certainly made it easier for England to win the series but they still wouldn't have been able to so had their own mindset not been in the right place. There are plenty of examples of key players missing Test matches - even whole series - but their teams still prevailing, simply because they had the wood over their oppo as a unit.

I thought England as a unit were still in awe of Australia for much of that Lord's Test but there were a couple of (and I'm loathe to use this word but here goes) positives which they took from the contest. One was the working over of Australia's early order and the symbolic drawing of blood. The other - and I was there to see it - was Pietersen's onslaught in the first innings. There had been the occasional instance of English batsmen playing very well against McGrath and Warne over the previous ten years but few examples of top order batsmen savagely going after them. When KP launched McGrath into the pavilion, you could hear the jaws dropping around St John's Wood. And I'm sure it sent the message through the England batting line up that the vaunted Aussie attack could be taken on. And so it was - both McGrath and Warne continued to take wickets during that series and remain spitefully dangerous but their run per over rates far exceeded their career marks.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 16:20   #49
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Yes, McGrath's injury certainly made it easier for England to win the series but they still wouldn't have been able to so had their own mindset not been in the right place. There are plenty of examples of key players missing Test matches - even whole series - but their teams still prevailing, simply because they had the wood over their oppo as a unit.

I thought England as a unit were still in awe of Australia for much of that Lord's Test but there were a couple of (and I'm loathe to use this word but here goes) positives which they took from the contest. One was the working over of Australia's early order and the symbolic drawing of blood. The other - and I was there to see it - was Pietersen's onslaught in the first innings. There had been the occasional instance of English batsmen playing very well against McGrath and Warne over the previous ten years but few examples of top order batsmen savagely going after them. When KP launched McGrath into the pavilion, you could hear the jaws dropping around St John's Wood. And I'm sure it sent the message through the England batting line up that the vaunted Aussie attack could be taken on. And so it was - both McGrath and Warne continued to take wickets during that series and remain spitefully dangerous but their run per over rates far exceeded their career marks.
I remember watching KP's innings and thinking someone pretty special was occurring, even if he did only score a couple of small 50s in that test as wickets fell around him.

As for the Aussie bowling, their was some precedence for their weakness without McGrath and/or Warne, as these stats suggest http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=se ries
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Old 23rd October 2013, 16:34   #50
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As for the Aussie bowling, their was some precedence for their weakness without McGrath and/or Warne, as these stats suggest http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=se ries
Which kinda makes my point...even with those two luminaries absent, India still couldn't shake off their terrible hoodoo in Australia to win the series.
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Old 24th June 2017, 10:06   #51
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Compelling story in today's Guardian about Steve Harmison''s battle with depression. Sad that there was so little help at hand, and that was only 12-13 years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...blic-interview
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