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Old 14th June 2015, 20:10   #21
CDogg16
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Buttler standing up to the stumps to Willey at the moment. That's very brave keeping to a fast-medium bowler.
I've never seen anyone stand up to the stumps when Bresnan is bowling.
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Old 14th June 2015, 20:14   #22
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Seems to be slightly laboring a particularly labored discussion.
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Old 14th June 2015, 20:54   #23
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Foster would.
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Old 15th June 2015, 11:28   #24
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Indeed Foster would, therefore changing the whole dynamic of the game. He would have also have caught the catch standing back off Wood.

I could be wrong (often am) but seem to remember Bresnan bowling cutters with the Keeper stood up in a test.
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Old 15th June 2015, 13:40   #25
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Don't remember that, o&f (thought that was better than "oaf").

I reckon Prior would have kept more than any other keeper to Bresnan in tests and he was worse standing up than he was standing back and always seemed reluctant to do it.
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Old 15th June 2015, 18:45   #26
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Indeed Foster would, therefore changing the whole dynamic of the game. He would have also have caught the catch standing back off Wood.

I could be wrong (often am) but seem to remember Bresnan bowling cutters with the Keeper stood up in a test.
I'm pretty sure Prior stood up to the stumps to Anderson and Hoggard before in places like Sri Lanka, so it's possible he did it to Bresnan too.
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Old 15th June 2015, 18:49   #27
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Certainly, if he did for Anderson. Not saying you're wrong, but I don't remember it.
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Old 15th June 2015, 18:54   #28
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I've just had a Google and there are a few times Prior stood up to Anderson on slow pitches including the last home Ashes. Apparently Ian Bell has worn a helmet at second slip before as they were trying so hard to get knicks to carry on low-bouncing pitches.
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Old 16th June 2015, 08:55   #29
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I've just had a Google and there are a few times Prior stood up to Anderson on slow pitches including the last home Ashes. Apparently Ian Bell has worn a helmet at second slip before as they were trying so hard to get knicks to carry on low-bouncing pitches.
Cheers. Was Anderson, perhaps, bowling at a reduced pace?

Standing up to his stock, mid 80s mph delivery, could be rather hazardous.
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Old 16th June 2015, 12:53   #30
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Who took the famous legside stumping standing up to Small in the Ashes?

I have gone a little off topic - but I do believe in ODI a good medium paced bowler with keeper stood up would be a useful weapon.
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Old 16th June 2015, 14:30   #31
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but I do believe in ODI a good medium paced bowler with keeper stood up would be a useful weapon.
I would suggest that most ODI pitches are so flat that medium pacers would struggle to contain the runs. The likes of Collingwood were most successful when there was a little in the pitch. James Faulkner is the closest we come to a proper medium pacer these days and he has a great repertoire of slow balls and other variations.
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Old 16th June 2015, 14:33   #32
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Who took the famous legside stumping standing up to Small in the Ashes?
Jack Russell I think.
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Old 16th June 2015, 17:49   #33
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Jack Russell I think.
Is this the match?
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Old 16th June 2015, 18:39   #34
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It's on youtube.
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Old 16th June 2015, 23:10   #35
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Indeed Foster would, therefore changing the whole dynamic of the game. He would have also have caught the catch standing back off Wood.
Quality keepers have been doing it for decades, and taking catches and stumpings (Godfrey Evans/Alec Bedser, for example). It's one reason I don't buy the "batting is more important than keeping" arguments - taking regulation catches standing back is one things; but making things happen by standing up is quite another. The stumping of Dean Jones off Small is a perfect example.

Other "keepers" struggle to stand up to the stumps against slower bowlers... a class spinner without a class keeper is only able to use part of their potential.
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Old 17th June 2015, 12:35   #36
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Quality keepers have been doing it for decades, and taking catches and stumpings (Godfrey Evans/Alec Bedser, for example). It's one reason I don't buy the "batting is more important than keeping" arguments - taking regulation catches standing back is one things; but making things happen by standing up is quite another. The stumping of Dean Jones off Small is a perfect example.

Other "keepers" struggle to stand up to the stumps against slower bowlers... a class spinner without a class keeper is only able to use part of their potential.
Jack Russell took two stumpings off medium pacers in 54 tests (the other being off of Graham Gooch).

Both matches were drawn and the stumpings were with the scores on 497/7 and 347/5 (ended up 518ao).

Remember that's from 54 tests. I'm not sure that's a particularly persuasive argument for wicketkeeping being pivotal as I'm sure an outstanding fielder would have pulled off two breathtaking run-outs/catches over a 54 test period.

There's even an argument to be made that in tests if England were to have a specialist fielder you shouldn't necessarily pick a wicketkeeper and a specialist in the slips ahead of Ian Bell would be of more benefit than a specialist wicketkeeper ahead of Jos Buttler.

Would the difference between an outstanding slipper and Ian Bell be greater than the difference between Foster and Buttler's wicketkeeping?

I don't think that's an argument denigrating wicketkeeping, but more suggesting that fielding in positions other than wicketkeeping has perhaps been historically undervalued.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 17th June 2015, 12:46   #37
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Russell 12 stumpings from 54 tests
Stewart 14 stumpings from 82 tests

Obviously that's a pretty crude methodology which doesn't account for the score at the time, although as highlighted in my previous post those Russell stumpings off of medium-pacers were hardly decisive.

According to KYS since 2011 Bell had shelled 17 chances (although I don't think that counts his latest drops, nor any of his leaves).

Buttler, who obviously hasn't played that entire period had dropped two.
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Old 17th June 2015, 15:53   #38
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My point was mainly about ODI

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I would suggest that most ODI pitches are so flat that medium pacers would struggle to contain the runs. The likes of Collingwood were most successful when there was a little in the pitch. James Faulkner is the closest we come to a proper medium pacer these days and he has a great repertoire of slow balls and other variations.
They are also so flat that four rightarm seamers bowling 85mph struggle contain the runs! Especially when the batsman are used to going down the pitch to them, the main tactic to combat this appears to be bowling short which opens up scoring opportunities allround the wicket. With a keeper standing up it would tie them to the crease and force to play relatively straight allowing a captain to set a field OR play riskier shots especially as they have to put pace on the ball..
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