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Old 31st December 2009, 02:28   #1021
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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And Collingwood's but that doesnt make him inexperienced. Dont really disagree about Broad but time is starting to move on a bit and - ashes spell at the Oval apart - Im not sure theres that much real progress.
How would you rate Broad's progress a week on?


One of the things that struck me about Broad's bowling in this last test was how miserly it was (e/r of 2.20 and 2.52). They were the types of figures that I'd have expected from Shaun Pollock in his prime, so I had a little look at Pollock's international record (Pollock's career figures at Durban: 44 wickets at 21.79 at an economy rate of 2.25.). Like Pollock, Broad is the son a former test cricketer and bowls at a sharp pace from a good height. Both are/were stylish looking batsmen who looked as if they probably underachieved with the bat.

So is Broad the new Pollock?

Pollock's big breakthrough came in 1996 at Cape Town. He was 22 at the time and went into the game averaging 35.44 with the ball, and took 5/32 (7/58 in the match) to take his bowling average down to the mid-20s. From that point on his bowling average only once - for one game at that - crept over 25.

Well, Stuart Broad is 23, has a bowling average of 34.36 and England go to Cape Town next......

Broad has played quite a few more test matches than Pollock had at the same age, so his bowling average won't drop quite the same, but he's averaged under 25 with the ball over his last 6 tests matches. That's even more impressive when you consider the opposition (South Africa and Australia). Admittedly it's a small sample size and so needs to be treated with caution, but the trend appears to be upwards (or rather the average downwards). I'm not saying Broad will necessarily be the new Pollock, but it does give cause for optimism.

Next week: can England unearth the new Paul Harris?
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Old 31st December 2009, 02:58   #1022
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In two of Broads last three test matches he has won the game/set it up, with an superb spell of devastating fast bowling. That's been against two of the best teams in the world. He's certainly coming on leaps and bounds, and as i said earlier in the thread - it happens when he sticks to a tight line and length and doesn't get carried away with variations.
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Old 31st December 2009, 09:01   #1023
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Nepotism, eh?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle6971002.ece
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Old 31st December 2009, 11:12   #1024
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This is a reasonably plausible suggestion, surely? Nepotism is somewhat natural (and not just for the pope). In any case, it's difficult to see how the suggestion would go away unless (a) Broad gets walloped by a match ref, or (b) he cleans up his act.

It is notable that Gavaskar is only talking here about sanctions for bad behaviour, not (as some on this board have) about Broad having kept his England place earlier in his career when it may have seemed that he didn't yet deserve it on merit.
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Old 31st December 2009, 11:23   #1025
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There's been a lot of talk about 'what kind of bowler Broad should be' especially on TMS. The feeling is that he should be bowling on a fuller length (which gave him his success at the Oval and at Durban) but the powers that be want him to Flintoff's replacement and bowl shorter, using awkward bounce.

However, in his post match interview he says he likes bowling at the top of off, and even said 'that's the kind of bowler I want to be' so hopefully he'll continue in this vein.
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Old 31st December 2009, 11:41   #1026
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There's been a lot of talk about 'what kind of bowler Broad should be' especially on TMS. The feeling is that he should be bowling on a fuller length (which gave him his success at the Oval and at Durban) but the powers that be want him to Flintoff's replacement and bowl shorter, using awkward bounce.

However, in his post match interview he says he likes bowling at the top of off, and even said 'that's the kind of bowler I want to be' so hopefully he'll continue in this vein.
I'm all for him being both types of bowler, adjusting his tactics as the circumstances demand. Having that versatility would be a tremendous asset to the side.
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Old 31st December 2009, 12:52   #1027
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Well quite, I think the worry is that he's been encouraged to bowl it too short too often though.
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Old 31st December 2009, 13:38   #1028
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I'm all for him being both types of bowler, adjusting his tactics as the circumstances demand. Having that versatility would be a tremendous asset to the side.
I think that's the absolutely key point: Broad hasn't necessarily known which style of bowling to use in which games and against which batsmen, presumably because he is only a youngster. He's got almost all the weapons you'd want in a fast bowler though and he does seem to be well ahead of where Flintoff was at a similar age, in that he does, at least sometimes, bowl a fuller length often enough to threaten the batsman. All fast bowlers benefit from having a good bouncer, even if their natural length is fuller; what they mustn't do is use it too often when the ball is swinging, either in the orthodox or reverse fashion. I'm increasingly hopeful that Broad could be a very fine test bowler in time. The comparisons with Pollock and McGrath are perhaps still a little fanciful but bowlers, especially young ones, only very rarely come into test cricket and have immediate success. It's a big step up and needs to be grown into. Broad is starting to grow into test cricket. If he can continue to improve he could be a massive asset for England for many years to come.
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Old 31st December 2009, 16:27   #1029
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I think for taller bowlers like Broad, it's something of a constant battle to avoid slipping onto a shorter length which is harder to hit but at the same time less threatening. Even at his best Flintoff was often guilty of it, and he had the extra pace and 'heavy ball' which Broad doesn't and probably never will. McGrath and Pollock are instructive examples because they always probed on an uncomfortable 'in between' length for batsmen, which in the right circumstances can induce the sort of indecision shown by the South Africans a few days ago.
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Old 31st December 2009, 18:45   #1030
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This is a reasonably plausible suggestion, surely? Nepotism is somewhat natural (and not just for the pope). In any case, it's difficult to see how the suggestion would go away unless (a) Broad gets walloped by a match ref, or (b) he cleans up his act.

It is notable that Gavaskar is only talking here about sanctions for bad behaviour, not (as some on this board have) about Broad having kept his England place earlier in his career when it may have seemed that he didn't yet deserve it on merit.
Had Chris Broad been match ref for some of Stuart's less edifying outbursts I do not doubt that Stuey would have lost a fair bit of his match fee income and perhaps also been forced to sit out a couple of matches confined to the naughty step. But is this because Chris Broad as match referee shows the zeal of a convert (he was after all extraordinarily petulant as a player). The rest seem far more benevolent.

Is Gavaskar really bemoaning Stuey having got off lightly? or taking a swipe at those refs who have had the cheek and temerity to ban certain high profile indian players? Anyone remember the Mike Deness affair?
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Old 31st December 2009, 18:57   #1031
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It's funny. Stuart does seem to get himself in some grief but doesn't get punished. Look at the number of county players who got points this season and yet he hasn't gained any or be fined much. I think the last player to be fined for their antics (rather than Colly for over rate) was Anderson when he barged into Morton.
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Old 31st December 2009, 18:59   #1032
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I wonder if any of the recent players will go on to have children who make it as test players. Could we have Ernie Hoggard opening the bowling with Charlie Harmison?
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Old 31st December 2009, 19:04   #1033
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The fact that both Broad and Anderson average in the mid thirties (34.36 and 34.85 respectively) suggests to me that seam bowling is dead. Indeed only one of England's so-called fab four (Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Simon Jones) managed to average below 30 and that can be written off as a statistical anomoly. Given Swann's impressive average (29.41) perhaps we could expect similar returns from Tredwell and Rashid? Even Monty Panesar's figures (126 wickets @ 34.37 with 8 five wicket hauls) compare favourably with Broad and Anderson.
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Old 31st December 2009, 20:19   #1034
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The fact that both Broad and Anderson average in the mid thirties (34.36 and 34.85 respectively) suggests to me that seam bowling is dead. Indeed only one of England's so-called fab four (Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Simon Jones) managed to average below 30 and that can be written off as a statistical anomoly. Given Swann's impressive average (29.41) perhaps we could expect similar returns from Tredwell and Rashid? Even Monty Panesar's figures (126 wickets @ 34.37 with 8 five wicket hauls) compare favourably with Broad and Anderson.
I can see you letting this go sometime in 2011. In fairness, I don't think there's any rush.
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Old 1st January 2010, 03:54   #1035
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There's been a lot of talk about 'what kind of bowler Broad should be' especially on TMS. The feeling is that he should be bowling on a fuller length (which gave him his success at the Oval and at Durban) but the powers that be want him to Flintoff's replacement and bowl shorter, using awkward bounce.

However, in his post match interview he says he likes bowling at the top of off, and even said 'that's the kind of bowler I want to be' so hopefully he'll continue in this vein.
He better keep that top of off style, if England try to turn him into a Flintoff type bang it in bowler then they'll ruin his talents.
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Old 1st January 2010, 13:29   #1036
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I can see you letting this go sometime in 2011. In fairness, I don't think there's any rush.
I don't know what you mean 'Slogger. I think we really need to debate whether England should automatically pick at least three seamers. Why not give Onions, Swann, Tredwell and Rashid the opportunity to form a four man attack at Cape Town?
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Old 1st January 2010, 14:12   #1037
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I don't know what you mean 'Slogger. I think we really need to debate whether England should automatically pick at least three seamers. Why not give Onions, Swann, Tredwell and Rashid the opportunity to form a four man attack at Cape Town?
You mean at least three spinners? I think I'd be more tempted to play Broad than Onions though.
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Old 1st January 2010, 17:10   #1038
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The fact that both Broad and Anderson average in the mid thirties (34.36 and 34.85 respectively) suggests to me that seam bowling is dead. Indeed only one of England's so-called fab four (Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Simon Jones) managed to average below 30 and that can be written off as a statistical anomoly. Given Swann's impressive average (29.41) perhaps we could expect similar returns from Tredwell and Rashid? Even Monty Panesar's figures (126 wickets @ 34.37 with 8 five wicket hauls) compare favourably with Broad and Anderson.
In Broad's case, it tells you that he had a very poor average in 2008 which he started to correct in 2009 (28.73 for the year). Incidentally, after 1981 Ian Botham's annual test bowling average only twice went below 30, which suggests that seam bowling, logically, died unnoticed over 20 years ago. If it was based purely on averages, of course, England's most sucessful current bowler is Ryan Sidebottom (27.7). I suspect all this tells us more about the value of averages than it does about the best bowling attack.
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Old 2nd January 2010, 12:50   #1039
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Did anyone see Stuart Broad's appearance on C4's Big Fat Quiz of the Year last night?
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Old 2nd January 2010, 22:51   #1040
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I wonder if any of the recent players will go on to have children who make it as test players. Could we have Ernie Hoggard opening the bowling with Charlie Harmison?
Opening batsmen: Josh Atherton and Jacob Hussain?
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