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Old 16th January 2016, 19:27   #121
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yes no-one obvious - probably moving Compton up and bringing Ballance in is as good as any alternatives. Door is open for someone to score loads of runs in county cricket to make a case for themselves. There are a few possibles without anyone really making a totally convincing case
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Old 16th January 2016, 19:52   #122
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yes no-one obvious - probably moving Compton up and bringing Ballance in is as good as any alternatives. Door is open for someone to score loads of runs in county cricket to make a case for themselves. There are a few possibles without anyone really making a totally convincing case
The thing is Robson, Lyth and Hales have all looked very good in county cricket over a couple of years before call up yet have all looked technically deficient in the test game. If we can't trust 1-2 years of county form, should we really be saying we'll pick whoever is doing well mid-May and trust to that? I think the selectors need to be a little more strategic than that.
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Old 16th January 2016, 20:59   #123
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The thing is Robson, Lyth and Hales have all looked very good in county cricket over a couple of years before call up yet have all looked technically deficient in the test game. If we can't trust 1-2 years of county form, should we really be saying we'll pick whoever is doing well mid-May and trust to that? I think the selectors need to be a little more strategic than that.
Hales has always had the odd very good patch in the CC, but I don't think his elevation to test status has that much to do with his CC performances. If he hadn't established himself as one of the best 2020 players in the world, I don't think he'd have been at the front of the queue for ODIs or for tests on the basis of his county game. That may not fit your preferred narrative though. In any case: what would your tip be for the selectors now, in terms of methodology? They've made two attempts in recent times (Buttler, Hales) to largely ignore the CC when picking test batsmen, but neither seems to have worked yet.
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Old 16th January 2016, 21:15   #124
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One of the considerations has to be that Cook hasn't been making runs, and in 4 innings he was the first man out. If the idea was that Hales was to be the more attacking partner, we have to see a partnership develop and if the combination works. One of the alleged reasons for dropping Compton was that he was too slow and putting pressure on Cook. Yeah. So much pressure that Cook made 3 centuries in India and was Man of the Series in his first tour as captain and stopped scoring as soon as Compton was dropped.

But Cook scores at his own pace and if they really want his partner to score quickly they perhaps have to give Hales a few more chances.
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Old 16th January 2016, 21:35   #125
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Hales has always had the odd very good patch in the CC, but I don't think his elevation to test status has that much to do with his CC performances. If he hadn't established himself as one of the best 2020 players in the world, I don't think he'd have been at the front of the queue for ODIs or for tests on the basis of his county game. That may not fit your preferred narrative though. In any case: what would your tip be for the selectors now, in terms of methodology? They've made two attempts in recent times (Buttler, Hales) to largely ignore the CC when picking test batsmen, but neither seems to have worked yet.
As much as Hales has succeeded in T20 and been promoted through the formats, as it were, he would not have received a call up to the test side had he not done well over the past season and a half in the county champs. At the same time, Lyth and Robson were more natural selections for the opening slot yet neither looked up to it once called up.

As for my preferred methodology, for now I think England need to stick with Hales, primarily for the reasons MF suggest (even if I don't believe her link between Cook and Compton).
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Old 16th January 2016, 21:37   #126
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One of the considerations has to be that Cook hasn't been making runs, and in 4 innings he was the first man out. If the idea was that Hales was to be the more attacking partner, we have to see a partnership develop and if the combination works. One of the alleged reasons for dropping Compton was that he was too slow and putting pressure on Cook. Yeah. So much pressure that Cook made 3 centuries in India and was Man of the Series in his first tour as captain and stopped scoring as soon as Compton was dropped.

But Cook scores at his own pace and if they really want his partner to score quickly they perhaps have to give Hales a few more chances.
Still this narrative including Cook? Wow. Compton was dropped for a run of bad form in an overall not terribly convincing record. The slow scoring was an issue, because he didn't look like he'd get enough runs before he got out to justify a place but it was hardly the main issue. That would still be my suspicion but fair enough, based on what we've seen so far and our lack of convincing alternatives I'd give him longer.

I've not seen all that much of Hales batting this series (I suppose nobody has, really but you know what I mean) but his innings today was pretty awful: about two convincing shots; no evidence that he could rotate the strike or score at a good rate; a whole heap of playing and missing outside off stump and eventually got out playing an attacking shot, probably to the wrong ball and certainly executing badly. He almost made Lyth look like a test level opening batsman, which is an astonishing thing to have achieved. I can't see that giving him the chance to limp on into the summer is a good idea. He might even get enough runs to limp on further but he's not a test batsman, certainly not at opener, I don't think.
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Old 16th January 2016, 21:59   #127
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One of the considerations has to be that Cook hasn't been making runs, and in 4 innings he was the first man out. If the idea was that Hales was to be the more attacking partner, we have to see a partnership develop and if the combination works. One of the alleged reasons for dropping Compton was that he was too slow and putting pressure on Cook. Yeah. So much pressure that Cook made 3 centuries in India and was Man of the Series in his first tour as captain and stopped scoring as soon as Compton was dropped.

But Cook scores at his own pace and if they really want his partner to score quickly they perhaps have to give Hales a few more chances.
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... for now I think England need to stick with Hales, primarily for the reasons MF suggest (even if I don't believe her link between Cook and Compton).
I don't think that Cook would feel any pressure on account of his partner's scoring rate, whatever it might be. It's one of his great strengths: he seems to be good at staying in his "bubble". Also, I don't think his scoring rate is slow, or that we need to partner him with someone faster.

I'm not sure whether England have chosen Hales because they think he will score runs quickly. I know that's what all the commentators say, but perhaps they don't know much about Hales apart from his international 2020 antics. I suspect his selection as test opener has far more to do with thinking that he will score runs full stop. There's certainly been no evidence of quick scoring from him in his three tests so far. In his 60 at Cape Town he didn't get out of second gear, and generally he hasn't got out of first. I don't mind that nearly as much as I mind him not staying in. I think he probably should have a few more chances, but certainly not because of some quest for a quick-scoring opener. We don't need one.
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Old 16th January 2016, 22:16   #128
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I don't think that Cook would feel any pressure on account of his partner's scoring rate, whatever it might be. It's one of his great strengths: he seems to be good at staying in his "bubble". Also, I don't think his scoring rate is slow, or that we need to partner him with someone faster.

I'm not sure whether England have chosen Hales because they think he will score runs quickly. I know that's what all the commentators say, but perhaps they don't know much about Hales apart from his international 2020 antics. I suspect his selection as test opener has far more to do with thinking that he will score runs full stop. There's certainly been no evidence of quick scoring from him in his three tests so far. In his 60 at Cape Town he didn't get out of second gear, and generally he hasn't got out of first. I don't mind that nearly as much as I mind him not staying in. I think he probably should have a few more chances, but certainly not because of some quest for a quick-scoring opener. We don't need one.
I think I mostly agree with this. There would be situations where a slow scoring top 3 could be a problem and certainly Cook is a bit slow and Compton fairly turgid so I'd prefer a quick scoring opener but the main thing would be to find a high scoring opener, which we still look a mile away from. You'd hope in a situation with say a good first innings lead and the need to push on to a declaration that both Cook and Compton would know how to step it up. They can both play one day cricket, Cook at times successfully for England, so have the range of shots. Having Hales there with his limited overs credentials might be a minor bonus in that scenario but no more than that.

We're also absolutely stuffed full of fast scoring players from 4 down in the order, with Root's technical excellence slightly concealing that he, for example, scored at better than a run a ball from when Stokes came in this test. Taylor is busy enough too and the rest are in for a good time rather than a long time, mostly.
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Old 16th January 2016, 22:21   #129
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Hales has always had the odd very good patch in the CC, but I don't think his elevation to test status has that much to do with his CC performances. If he hadn't established himself as one of the best 2020 players in the world, I don't think he'd have been at the front of the queue for ODIs or for tests on the basis of his county game. That may not fit your preferred narrative though. In any case: what would your tip be for the selectors now, in terms of methodology? They've made two attempts in recent times (Buttler, Hales) to largely ignore the CC when picking test batsmen, but neither seems to have worked yet.
The CC based picks of Lyth, Robson and Compton haven't worked either though.



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One of the considerations has to be that Cook hasn't been making runs, and in 4 innings he was the first man out. If the idea was that Hales was to be the more attacking partner, we have to see a partnership develop and if the combination works. One of the alleged reasons for dropping Compton was that he was too slow and putting pressure on Cook. Yeah. So much pressure that Cook made 3 centuries in India and was Man of the Series in his first tour as captain and stopped scoring as soon as Compton was dropped.

But Cook scores at his own pace and if they really want his partner to score quickly they perhaps have to give Hales a few more chances.
The Cook-Compton partnership in this series was a disaster. Made us yearn for the days of Cook-Hales.

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I don't think that Cook would feel any pressure on account of his partner's scoring rate, whatever it might be. It's one of his great strengths: he seems to be good at staying in his "bubble". Also, I don't think his scoring rate is slow, or that we need to partner him with someone faster.

I'm not sure whether England have chosen Hales because they think he will score runs quickly. I know that's what all the commentators say, but perhaps they don't know much about Hales apart from his international 2020 antics. I suspect his selection as test opener has far more to do with thinking that he will score runs full stop. There's certainly been no evidence of quick scoring from him in his three tests so far. In his 60 at Cape Town he didn't get out of second gear, and generally he hasn't got out of first. I don't mind that nearly as much as I mind him not staying in. I think he probably should have a few more chances, but certainly not because of some quest for a quick-scoring opener. We don't need one.
Good point about Cook in his bubble.

I think we'd have benefitted from an opener scoring quickly today in that run chase. We also saw how that Root-Stokes partnership took the game away from SA.
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Old 16th January 2016, 22:40   #130
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Roy is lined up and when he outscores Hales in the ODIs will be the next name in.

ODIs
Roy 33.00 s/r 98.29
Hales 25.17 s/r 86.93
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Old 16th January 2016, 22:49   #131
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Roy is lined up and when he outscores Hales in the ODIs will be the next name in.

ODIs
Roy 33.00 s/r 98.29
Hales 25.17 s/r 86.93
Roy already looks better than Hales in ODIs IMO. But why that makes you the next pick as a test opener I'm not sure.
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Old 16th January 2016, 22:58   #132
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Roy already looks better than Hales in ODIs IMO. But why that makes you the next pick as a test opener I'm not sure.
I think Bayliss wants the Test team to play like the ODI team.
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Old 16th January 2016, 23:04   #133
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I think I mostly agree with this. There would be situations where a slow scoring top 3 could be a problem and certainly Cook is a bit slow and Compton fairly turgid so I'd prefer a quick scoring opener but the main thing would be to find a high scoring opener which we still look a mile away from. You'd hope in a situation with say a good first innings lead and the need to push on to a declaration that both Cook and Compton would know how to step it up. They can both play one day cricket, Cook at times successfully for England, so have the range of shots. Having Hales there with his limited overs credentials might be a minor bonus in that scenario but no more than that.

We're also absolutely stuffed full of fast scoring players from 4 down in the order with Root's technical excellence slightly concealing that he, for example, scored at better than a run a ball from when Stokes came in this test. Taylor is busy enough too and the rest are in for a good time rather than a long time, mostly.
Absolutely. It's runs that England have been short of from the top 3 with Lyth, for example, getting out a lot in the teens. Not how fast but how many.

And of course we have the middle order "powerhouse" as I called it earlier. The idea, put forward by cabinboy (not sure how seriously) of just moving Root, Stokes etc up the order because they are more dynamic wouldn't work, it would waste their talents. Why did KP never bat higher than 4? For that same reason.
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Old 16th January 2016, 23:22   #134
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I think Bayliss wants the Test team to play like the ODI team.
Lord spare us. He's learnt nothing.

This was a low scoring game, because SA batted like drains in their first innings, but we still struggled to match and overtake their score.

We put on 600+ at Cape Town thanks to a big double ton and big hundred from Stokes and Bairstow at 6 and 7. We thought we'd win but Amla responded with 201 from 477 balls with contributions of 80 odd at s/rates around 40 from AB and Faf. This enabled them to declare on 627 and give England a scare.

Some teams have openers who can score a lot of runs very quickly and that's great for them. It's up to each team to work with the players available and find the best way to win. Cook isn't going to change. We have the quick scorers down the order, as discussed. Give them a platform and they can take England to a substantial total. I am at a loss to understand why Bayliss wouldn't think this a good plan.
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Old 17th January 2016, 00:09   #135
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Lord spare us. He's learnt nothing.

This was a low scoring game, because SA batted like drains in their first innings, but we still struggled to match and overtake their score.

We put on 600+ at Cape Town thanks to a big double ton and big hundred from Stokes and Bairstow at 6 and 7. We thought we'd win but Amla responded with 201 from 477 balls with contributions of 80 odd at s/rates around 40 from AB and Faf. This enabled them to declare on 627 and give England a scare.

Some teams have openers who can score a lot of runs very quickly and that's great for them. It's up to each team to work with the players available and find the best way to win. Cook isn't going to change. We have the quick scorers down the order, as discussed. Give them a platform and they can take England to a substantial total. I am at a loss to understand why Bayliss wouldn't think this a good plan.
For some reason he wants our openers to put pressure on the opposition's opening bowlers. With Sri Lanka he had Paranavitana s/r 41.92, Dilshan 65.54 and Sangakkara 54.19 so he isn't used to Cook 46.42, Hales 36.58, Compton 35.51.
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Old 17th January 2016, 00:25   #136
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You can put pressure on opening bowlers if you have the ability and intent and style to do so. But doing it at test level isn't as easy as ln limited overs when there are fielding and bowling restrictions.

In test cricket there is another way to put pressure on bowlers which is not possible in one day cricket. This is called Not Getting Out. This frustrates bowlers no end and tires them out and makes them grumpy. Thank you to the wonderful Foxy Fowler for reminding us of this a few years ago. Tire the bowlers by being stubbornly there for as long as possible. Of course runs will be scored along the way, but not an impressive amount. When the top order begin to accelerate and wickets fall, the quicker batsmen come in and wreak havoc on the tired bowlers and fielders.

To be fair, Hales's s/rate wouldn't normally be that low, Compton's probably a smidgen higher and Cook has made very few runs anyway.

I'm on hand to explain this to Trev if he's interested.
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Old 17th January 2016, 01:11   #137
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You can put pressure on opening bowlers if you have the ability and intent and style to do so. But doing it at test level isn't as easy as ln limited overs when there are fielding and bowling restrictions.

In test cricket there is another way to put pressure on bowlers which is not possible in one day cricket. This is called Not Getting Out. This frustrates bowlers no end and tires them out and makes them grumpy. Thank you to the wonderful Foxy Fowler for reminding us of this a few years ago. Tire the bowlers by being stubbornly there for as long as possible. Of course runs will be scored along the way, but not an impressive amount. When the top order begin to accelerate and wickets fall, the quicker batsmen come in and wreak havoc on the tired bowlers and fielders.

To be fair, Hales's s/rate wouldn't normally be that low, Compton's probably a smidgen higher and Cook has made very few runs anyway.

I'm on hand to explain this to Trev if he's interested.
I wish you could.
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Old 17th January 2016, 06:12   #138
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Stokes and Root's fast scoring has been moe effective than Cook and Compton's crease occupation though. So maybe Bayliss is onto something?
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Old 17th January 2016, 08:29   #139
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Surely mentions of Cook's recent form is a red herring. His overall record means that we shouldn't really be discussing the identity of the opener in terms of the merit of that player rather than going on about whether or not they are a good match because of the way that they play. Much of Cook's issues this series is that he's come up against some reasonable and better quick bowlers.
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Old 17th January 2016, 11:05   #140
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Would anyone swap Hales and Compton around for the final Test? Hales has done better than I thought he would, but I suspect he'll only come off about 1 in 5 innings.
Expectations must have been quite low, then.

I'd certainly prefer to see Compton opening, whatever happens to Hales as a consequence.
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