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Old 26th January 2016, 19:46   #181
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... The point people are making when defending Ali isn't that he is a great spinner, its that the alternatives at the moment aren't great. We played 3 spinners in the UAe, Ali 9@48.7, Rashid 8@69.5, Patel 3@54.6. There isn't a spinner in county cricket with over 50 wickets and a bowling average below 35, so nobody is really crying out for selection. The point of having county matches is at least in part so the selectors can have a look at what is available and good players can shine. At the moment there is no strong evidence to suggest there is a better alternative than a bits and pieces cricketer as a spin bowler for England. Chucking a player in who isn't able to perform significantly better at a lower level on the off chance they may possible do better isn't really sensible selection, you might as well throw six names in a hat and pull one out and hope you are lucky. If Rashid can improve his consistency and accuracy with Yorkshire or Ansari can perform anything like in Div 1 then clearly Ali goes. My guess is Ansari is the more likely replacement just because his home county pitch isn't such a medium pacers dream and he will get the overs in over middle part of the season to justify selection.
I think you're right that those two are fairly high on the list of likely replacements, but that's at least partly because they too are rather good batsmen. As I've said elsewhere, I simply don't think there's a vacancy for a better spinner than Moeen unless that spinner is also significantly better than Broad with the bat. That's why Patel is part of the discussion -- he, like Ansari and Ali, only gets into his county side on the understanding that he doesn't take one of the bowling slots. I'll be interested to see if Arron Lilley get more games for Lancashire this year -- he did well for them last year, but was behind Kerrigan in the pecking order.
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Old 26th January 2016, 22:40   #182
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The obvious point to make about the website stats you are using is how can he have an average in 2016 of 123, when the only series he has played was SA and his bowling average was 48.5?
And the response would be that the first Test of the series was played in 2015 and the other three, where he was crap, were in 2016.
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Old 26th January 2016, 23:11   #183
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I always thought that if a series started in one year and ended in the other, both years would be included. So the last Ashes series to be played in Australia would be 2013/14. By that logic it would be the 2015 series against Pakistan and the 2015/16 series against SA. That would make Jock right as all the Tests against West Indies were played in 2015.
This isn't the case. As I said, the dates of the tour itself are irrelevant, it's the season which determines the classification. Certainly Wikipedia agrees with me, as does Cricinfo.
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Old 26th January 2016, 23:27   #184
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This isn't the case. As I said, the dates of the tour itself are irrelevant, it's the season which determines the classification. Certainly Wikipedia agrees with me, as does Cricinfo.
You're clearly right on this point, albeit that it's slightly counter intuitive (the point itself, I mean, not you being correct).
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Old 27th January 2016, 08:36   #185
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This isn't the case. As I said, the dates of the tour itself are irrelevant, it's the season which determines the classification. Certainly Wikipedia agrees with me, as does Cricinfo.
Yes, you're correct. For the same reason, the 'curtain raiser' game between MCC and Champion County will take place right at the end of the 2015/16 overseas season, not at the start of the 2016 season.
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Old 27th January 2016, 08:43   #186
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Yes, you're correct. For the same reason, the 'curtain raiser' game between MCC and Champion County will take place right at the end of the 2015/16 overseas season, not at the start of the 2016 season.
Thanks. It is somewhat anachronistic given the overlap between the earlier start to the county season and spring tours to places like the Caribbean and Sri Lanka. South Africa also now hosting tours in August too.

I guess in theory it would be possible to travel twice to SL or SA in the same calendar year but once in winter/spring and once in autumn!
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Old 27th January 2016, 09:19   #187
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Thanks. It is somewhat anachronistic given the overlap between the earlier start to the county season and spring tours to places like the Caribbean and Sri Lanka. South Africa also now hosting tours in August too.
I reconcile that by ignoring what's happening with the visiting team's season and focus purely on the home team. The West Indies season begins in November and so, any Test series they host that is played in Feb to Mar is part of that same season. The fact that England's own season may overlap it is, I think, of no relevance, because they are the guests. It's all about the home turf.
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Old 27th January 2016, 13:36   #188
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I reconcile that by ignoring what's happening with the visiting team's season and focus purely on the home team. The West Indies season begins in November and so, any Test series they host that is played in Feb to Mar is part of that same season. The fact that England's own season may overlap it is, I think, of no relevance, because they are the guests. It's all about the home turf.
I do see, however, that Australia's tour to the Caribbean last summer is classed as 2015 and not 2014/15. I guess it is actually completely outside the usual West Indies season though.
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Old 19th February 2016, 18:43   #189
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Scores for England in T20Is

5,3,36,0,10,3,0,72,0,0,0

He's got past ten twice in ten innings.
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Old 19th February 2016, 19:30   #190
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Scores for England in T20Is

5,3,36,0,10,3,0,72,0,0,0

He's got past ten twice in ten innings.
If he bowls like tonight then I don't mind. It's tough batting where he bats, especially when he has batted against the new ball all his career.
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Old 19th February 2016, 23:53   #191
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If he bowls like tonight then I don't mind. It's tough batting where he bats, especially when he has batted against the new ball all his career.
He has been surprisingly bad down the order in limited overs cricket. Problem is that there's so much batting in the side that you can hardly make a case for promoting an under performing lower order batsman, even one who might well do a lot better in the top 3. I think he's been a little unlucky to be out to the shots he's played in his last couple of innings: the fielders very often drop those or you get a tiny bit more elevation or lateral distance from them and then it's an inevitable 4.
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Old 22nd February 2016, 10:05   #192
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H I think he's been a little unlucky to be out to the shots he's played in his last couple of innings: the fielders very often drop those or you get a tiny bit more elevation or lateral distance from them and then it's an inevitable 4.
Were he to be the fielder then yes, that fielder would drop it.

At present he's keeping Parry out of the side and I'd dare say that Parry is a better T20 bowler, and batsman!!
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Old 22nd February 2016, 10:08   #193
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Scores for England in T20Is

5,3,36,0,10,3,0,72,0,0,0

He's got past ten twice in ten innings.
His scores in ODIs aren't likely to be much better.

Neither are his recent test scores or bowling figures.

But he once took 6 wickets vs India in 2014.

Last 12 months - 17 ODI's

Batting average of 23

One century - vs Scotland.

Next highest score : 21*

21 wickets in 148 overs at an economy rate of 5.

Never taken 4 or more wickets in an innings.
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Old 22nd February 2016, 13:39   #194
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That's a pretty decent economy-rate in the modern era, so I'll put you down as a vote for keeping him then Jock.
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Old 22nd February 2016, 13:50   #195
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That's a pretty decent economy-rate in the modern era, so I'll put you down as a vote for keeping him then Jock.
Err excuse me, it's well known that spinners only have low economy rates because they make the batsmen tonk the seamers around the park instead. So while Moeen's economy rate would certainly be cause for celebration if he were a seamer, in fact it only tells a small fraction of the story.
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Old 22nd February 2016, 20:29   #196
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Were he to be the fielder then yes, that fielder would drop it.

At present he's keeping Parry out of the side and I'd dare say that Parry is a better T20 bowler, and batsman!!
That you're daring to say it doesn't make it any less ridiculous. His batting has been very disappointing but a ball one slogger role doesn't suit him and inevitably in that role you're effectively talking about a pretty small sample size of innings. As a bowler he's been good enough to keep a specialist slot even if you entirely discount his batting, especially given our spinning stocks are such that Parry is the best you can come up with.
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Old 22nd February 2016, 22:23   #197
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Where was moeen batting when he scored 72 off 46 vs oz? Was that number 3? Since that innings he had been Down the order. Why?
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Old 22nd February 2016, 22:28   #198
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His scores in ODIs aren't likely to be much better.

Neither are his recent test scores or bowling figures.

But he once took 6 wickets vs India in 2014.

Last 12 months - 17 ODI's

Batting average of 23

One century - vs Scotland.

Next highest score : 21*

21 wickets in 148 overs at an economy rate of 5.

Never taken 4 or more wickets in an innings.
21 wickets off 148 overs. That is a wicket every 42 balls. Shane warne took his wickets at 36.3. So in 148 overs he would on average take 24 wickets. Might I suggest that these figures are actually okay? If they batted him where they should then he might continue averaging over 30 at better than a run a ball.
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Old 22nd February 2016, 22:29   #199
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What are adil's figures for the same period? They will be worse so shouldn't we be discussing him rather than mo?
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Old 22nd February 2016, 23:51   #200
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I wonder whether Jock is just indulging in a convoluted mockery of your selective use of stats. It seems hard to believe but not much more incredible than presenting some stats showing that Moeen has been pretty decent with the ball in the last year as evidence that he's been bad.
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