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Old 29th April 2016, 16:58   #101
Redmachine
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I wouldn't say Stokes is any more a match winner with the ball than Ali is with the ball. You can't go into every game saying our spinner is going to bowl 10 to 15 overs a day, especially with a tour of India coming up. The lack of a top class spinner was the difference between us and Pakistan, and it might be the difference between us and India.
Stokes being a better bowler/match winner than Ali is a matter of opinion, but to me it's pretty clear.

As for the India tour, my reluctance to have a 4 seamer/2 spinner attack is just for this English summer. I wasn't referring to anything beyond that. Even in India, I'd look to pick 5 bowlers with two of them being spinners. Our batting isn't strong enough to have Ali batting at 5 to house the extra bowler. If we had the best top 4 in the world I'd budge on it, but we have had 2 world class players and two hopeless ones I the top 4 recently.
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Old 29th April 2016, 17:13   #102
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I am quite forgetful.

Remind me who won man of the match in the crucial first test vs saffers.

DROP HIM.
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Old 29th April 2016, 17:43   #103
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Sorry, who is saying drop him?
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Old 29th April 2016, 17:55   #104
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I like Ali and believe he deserves to be in the team.
The issue with him is that he makes important contributions rather than match winning ones. So he will take an early wicket when the seamers have failed to but he will not take a 5fer and run through a team.
I think that Batting Bairstow at 5, Stokes 6, Ali 7, Rashid 8 would be an experiment worth trying prior to India although probably not against Sri L in May.
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Old 29th April 2016, 19:58   #105
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I like Ali and believe he deserves to be in the team.
The issue with him is that he makes important contributions rather than match winning ones. So he will take an early wicket when the seamers have failed to but he will not take a 5fer and run through a team.
I think that Batting Bairstow at 5, Stokes 6, Ali 7, Rashid 8 would be an experiment worth trying prior to India although probably not against Sri L in May.
I think it probably will be towards the end of the summer, particularly if nobody really claims a top 5 place.
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Old 29th April 2016, 20:58   #106
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I think it probably will be towards the end of the summer, particularly if nobody really claims a top 5 place.
There would be no point in doing that if they were then going to have to change things around in India in November, which I think they are highly likely to have to do. Bairstow and Stokes in particular don't really have much of a pedigree v spin.
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Old 29th April 2016, 22:34   #107
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There would be no point in doing that if they were then going to have to change things around in India in November, which I think they are highly likely to have to do. Bairstow and Stokes in particular don't really have much of a pedigree v spin.
Thats true ... but which English batsmen do. The best player of spin available would probably be Cook, Root and Bell, outside that there isn't a long list.
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Old 29th April 2016, 22:48   #108
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Thats true ... but which English batsmen do. The best player of spin available would probably be Cook, Root and Bell, outside that there isn't a long list.
Especially now Taylor isn't available.
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Old 29th April 2016, 23:43   #109
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There would be no point in doing that if they were then going to have to change things around in India in November, which I think they are highly likely to have to do. Bairstow and Stokes in particular don't really have much of a pedigree v spin.
I think the relative ineptitude of Stokes and Bairstow against spin was widely known before the UAE test series, but they both still played, and were pants. I'm sure that fitness permitting, they'll both play every test vs India and once again, predictably, be pants. It's simply too disruptive to have to adjust the team seriously in order not to get pummelled in Asia.
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Old 30th April 2016, 07:32   #110
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Thats true ... but which English batsmen do. The best player of spin available would probably be Cook, Root and Bell, outside that there isn't a long list.
Frankly I wouldn't include Bell in that list.

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I think the relative ineptitude of Stokes and Bairstow against spin was widely known before the UAE test series, but they both still played, and were pants. I'm sure that fitness permitting, they'll both play every test vs India and once again, predictably, be pants. It's simply too disruptive to have to adjust the team seriously in order not to get pummelled in Asia.
Not disagreeing, just that if there are better options, who are they, which is both relevant to batting and the current merit of the spin bowling options available to England. In terms of batting against spin James Taylor's retirement is a huge blow for that as mentioned above.
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Old 30th April 2016, 08:52   #111
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Sorry, who is saying drop him?
Anyone who says rash is should play. The only slight chance of playing two spin bowlers vs touring Asian sides is at the final test at the oval. Before then it is just a daft idea.
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Old 30th April 2016, 09:05   #112
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Anyone who says rash is should play. The only slight chance of playing two spin bowlers vs touring Asian sides is at the final test at the oval. Before then it is just a daft idea.
I agree with you that playing 2 spinners is daft, but I think everyone seems to be saying, 'keep Ali and bat him higher' not 'drop him'.
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Old 1st May 2016, 13:10   #113
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Frankly I wouldn't include Bell in that list.



Not disagreeing, just that if there are better options, who are they, which is both relevant to batting and the current merit of the spin bowling options available to England. In terms of batting against spin James Taylor's retirement is a huge blow for that as mentioned above.
Root apart, I'd love to see somebody name better options for middle order batsmen than Bairstow or Stokes.

Joe Clarke looks about the biggest talent we have. Who else is there out there? Vince at 3 perhaps? a recall for Ballance? or reconsidering whether Morgan and Buttler are short format players only? There's not many riches out there. Taylor is a massive loss.
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Old 1st May 2016, 16:02   #114
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Root apart, I'd love to see somebody name better options for middle order batsmen than Bairstow or Stokes.

Joe Clarke looks about the biggest talent we have. Who else is there out there? Vince at 3 perhaps? a recall for Ballance? or reconsidering whether Morgan and Buttler are short format players only? There's not many riches out there. Taylor is a massive loss.
Taylor seemed to have potential and what happened is tragic. His ODI average was 42, so there is no doubt he is a big loss in that format. What we will sadly never know is was he capable of improving a relatively poor Test average.

Overall Ballance has enjoyed a decent test career to date, when he lost form he lost it completely. For me he deserves a shot at showing his early form was a reflection of his talent. The worry is that he came a bit unstuck when he had to face his first decent seam attack in New Zealand and this continued against the Aussies. That said I'd be confident about him as a top 5 bat vs India and Sri Lanka. The test for him will be Pakistan as they do have a couple of decent quicks. I'm fairly certain he will get picked for the first test.
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Old 1st May 2016, 16:04   #115
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Root apart, I'd love to see somebody name better options for middle order batsmen than Bairstow or Stokes.

Joe Clarke looks about the biggest talent we have. Who else is there out there? Vince at 3 perhaps? a recall for Ballance? or reconsidering whether Morgan and Buttler are short format players only? There's not many riches out there. Taylor is a massive loss.
In terms of Bairstow his average in the top 6 is very average - it will be interesting at some point in the future to see how he fairs higher up the order with a bit of confidence,
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Old 1st May 2016, 21:08   #116
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Root apart, I'd love to see somebody name better options for middle order batsmen than Bairstow or Stokes.

Joe Clarke looks about the biggest talent we have. Who else is there out there? Vince at 3 perhaps? a recall for Ballance? or reconsidering whether Morgan and Buttler are short format players only? There's not many riches out there. Taylor is a massive loss.
I was talking about in terms of their ability to play spin. I said that even though I have my doubts, there isn't anyone standing out to take their place, in terms of ability to play spin and certainly not otherwise in terms of ability to play pace.
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Old 1st May 2016, 21:58   #117
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I was talking about in terms of their ability to play spin. I said that even though I have my doubts, there isn't anyone standing out to take their place, in terms of ability to play spin and certainly not otherwise in terms of ability to play pace.
They say Samit is a good player of spin, but I don't watch enough county cricket to comment meaningfully on him or anyone else in this regard. In any case, he's had a fairly dismal start to the season. I do recall though a World 2020 in Asia in which he played mostly as a tail-ender but batted very well in the only match in which he batted up the order.
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Old 1st May 2016, 22:21   #118
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Root apart, I'd love to see somebody name better options for middle order batsmen than Bairstow or Stokes.

Joe Clarke looks about the biggest talent we have. Who else is there out there? Vince at 3 perhaps? a recall for Ballance? or reconsidering whether Morgan and Buttler are short format players only? There's not many riches out there. Taylor is a massive loss.
When does Sangakarra qualify?

Bell was always decent against spin until he was out trying to go over the top a few times. As the season is progressing, there's not really a middle order batsman who is kicking down the door. Dobell was under the impression that Bell was being scouted by Newell, and if his is the case I can see him getting a recall, as it shows he is still in the selectors thinking. Vince didn't do much again today. I wouldn't be against a Clarke or Hain being thrown in and given a chance, although I don't know if playing spin is their strong suit or a weakness.

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Old 1st May 2016, 22:33   #119
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When does Sangakatra qualify?

Bell was always decent against spin until he was out trying to go over the top a few times. As the season is progressing, there's not really a middle order batsman who is kicking down the door. Dobell was under the impression that Bell was being scouted by Newell, and if his is the case I can see him getting a recall, as it shows he is still in the selectors thinking. Vince didn't do much again today. I wouldn't be against a Clarke or Hain being thrown in and given a chance, although I don't know if playing spin is their strong suit or a weakness.
A question that is already being asked.

http://www.cricket247.org/community/...673#post711673
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Old 2nd May 2016, 14:21   #120
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I agree with you that playing 2 spinners is daft, but I think everyone seems to be saying, 'keep Ali and bat him higher' not 'drop him'.
I don't think it's everyone saying that. Sans will be saying that as part of his pleaing for England to field an all spin attack.

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When does Sangakarra qualify?

Bell was always decent against spin until he was out trying to go over the top a few times. As the season is progressing, there's not really a middle order batsman who is kicking down the door. Dobell was under the impression that Bell was being scouted by Newell, and if his is the case I can see him getting a recall, as it shows he is still in the selectors thinking. Vince didn't do much again today. I wouldn't be against a Clarke or Hain being thrown in and given a chance, although I don't know if playing spin is their strong suit or a weakness.
If we're basing this on Dobell's crushes, presumably this is



rather than
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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