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Old 17th August 2016, 20:48   #1
JS180
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London Tests vs Midlands/Northern Tests

The commentators mentioned it a few times during the Oval test that for some reason we don't do well in the two London tests. Compare that to the likes of Edgbaston and Headingley/OT where we look a formidable side, what do you guys think the reason for that is?

One thing I noticed during this Pak series is that Oval/Lord's has flatter pitches and weather that suited batting, but surely it can't be a simple as that? On a side note even as a Londoner I prefer the fans at Edgbaston, they create a good atmosphere and provide us all with laughs with their various fancy dress outfits compared to us Londoners who seems to sit their quietly sipping on champagne. My first test was that last day of the previous Ashes test at Edgbaston and sitting in the Eric Hollies stand i'd lost my voice almost by the end.
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Old 17th August 2016, 20:59   #2
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The commentators mentioned it a few times during the Oval test that for some reason we don't do well in the two London tests. Compare that to the likes of Edgbaston and Headingley/OT where we look a formidable side, what do you guys think the reason for that is?

One thing I noticed during this Pak series is that Oval/Lord's has flatter pitches and weather that suited batting, but surely it can't be a simple as that? On a side note even as a Londoner I prefer the fans at Edgbaston, they create a good atmosphere and provide us all with laughs with their various fancy dress outfits compared to us Londoners who seems to sit their quietly sipping on champagne. My first test was that last day of the previous Ashes test at Edgbaston and sitting in the Eric Hollies stand i'd lost my voice almost by the end.
I'd have said that the flatter pitches was the main thing. I'm glad that it has been identified as a trend. Since 2012 our record in the big bad smoke has been poor where two tests were lost v SA, in 2014 a draw at home to SL and a loss at Lord's and the 2 Ashes defeats last year as well as the 2 Pak losses this year. The 2 Ashes tests last year were a case in point where little to no lateral movement meant that Australia piled on the runs in a way that they couldn't when the ball started darting around even moderately. This year was very similar and Pakistan expolited their advantage of having a high quality spinner thoroughly. Unfortunately Anderson and Broad don't do better in the 2nd half of the year when there is less help for the seamers and were anonymous at the Oval.
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Old 17th August 2016, 21:10   #3
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I'd have said that the flatter pitches was the main thing. I'm glad that it has been identified as a trend. Since 2012 our record in the big bad smoke has been poor where two tests were lost v SA, in 2014 a draw at home to SL and a loss at Lord's and the 2 Ashes defeats last year as well as the 2 Pak losses this year. The 2 Ashes tests last year were a case in point where little to no lateral movement meant that Australia piled on the runs in a way that they couldn't when the ball started darting around even moderately. This year was very similar and Pakistan expolited their advantage of having a high quality spinner thoroughly. Unfortunately Anderson and Broad don't do better in the 2nd half of the year when there is less help for the seamers and were anonymous at the Oval.
Good points you make, in theory if the pitch remains flat mostly throughout the 5 days then shouldn't we be having high score draws? Why is that the opposition thrive on the flat Ldn pitches but we don't? Do the groundsmen at the Oval/Lords do something different to the others to cause these road like pitches? You could hear a pin drop at the Oval, can't stand for those sort of fans who see it as just another day and don't care overly if we win or lose, rather than getting behind the side.
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Old 17th August 2016, 22:39   #4
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Originally Posted by JS180 View Post
The commentators mentioned it a few times during the Oval test that for some reason we don't do well in the two London tests. Compare that to the likes of Edgbaston and Headingley/OT where we look a formidable side, what do you guys think the reason for that is?

One thing I noticed during this Pak series is that Oval/Lord's has flatter pitches and weather that suited batting, but surely it can't be a simple as that? On a side note even as a Londoner I prefer the fans at Edgbaston, they create a good atmosphere and provide us all with laughs with their various fancy dress outfits compared to us Londoners who seems to sit their quietly sipping on champagne. My first test was that last day of the previous Ashes test at Edgbaston and sitting in the Eric Hollies stand i'd lost my voice almost by the end.
I go to the cricket to watch the cricket. I couldn't care less if they make a record-breaking beer snake in the Eric Hollies stand and I wish the TV and radio commentators wouldn't encourage them. Also, the idea that spectators in the non-party stands are all posh people sipping champagne is nonsense. They are mostly cricket lovers whose idea of a good time is watching good cricket, although of course they might also have the odd glass of something fizzy. And when the cricket is exciting the crowd gets more animated, which is great.
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Old 17th August 2016, 23:06   #5
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Might be worth noting that those not sitting in the party stands could include families and older people, or even (god forbid) people who don't drink. I don't mind the beer snakes, inflatables and singing but that doesn't mean the whole ground has to be a Club 18-30.

As to why we seem to do less well in London. Well, Lords has always been a tricky one for us. As the Home of Cricket, many touring sides raise their game - wasn't 2009 the first England win there in the Ashes since the 1930s?

In general, though, I think it's unlikely to be anything other than a statistical oddity, and one being overstated. We beat the Kiwis at Lords in 2013 and 2015 and the Indians were destroyed in their last visit to the Oval, while both the last two Ashes Oval tests were dead rubbers. We've also been embarassed in two May tests in Leeds recently as well.
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Old 18th August 2016, 01:08   #6
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Tests since 2000

Played ~ Won ~ Draw ~ Lost ~ Ground

34 Tests 17 ~ 10 ~ 7 ~ Lords
17 Tests 8 ~ 4 ~ 5 ~ Oval
15 Tests 9 ~ 3 ~ 3 ~ Trent Bridge
14 Tests 8 ~ 3 ~ 3 ~ Edgbaston
14 Tests 7 ~ 1 ~ 6 ~ Headingley
12 Tests 8 ~ 3 ~ 1 ~ Old Trafford
6 Tests 6 ~ 6 ~ 0 ~ Riverside
3 Tests 2 ~ 1 ~ 0 ~ Sophia Gardens
2 Tests 1 ~ 1 ~ 0 ~ Rose Bowl
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Old 18th August 2016, 09:23   #7
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In general, though, I think it's unlikely to be anything other than a statistical oddity, and one being overstated. We beat the Kiwis at Lords in 2013 and 2015 and the Indians were destroyed in their last visit to the Oval, while both the last two Ashes Oval tests were dead rubbers. We've also been embarassed in two May tests in Leeds recently as well.
We must remember that it was an Oval Test that inspired the obituary to English Cricket which resulted in the creation of The Ashes.

But, also, we should never forget 1926. 1953, 1985 and 2009.
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Old 18th August 2016, 10:26   #8
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Might be worth noting that those not sitting in the party stands could include families and older people, or even (god forbid) people who don't drink. I don't mind the beer snakes, inflatables and singing but that doesn't mean the whole ground has to be a Club 18-30.

As to why we seem to do less well in London. Well, Lords has always been a tricky one for us. As the Home of Cricket, many touring sides raise their game - wasn't 2009 the first England win there in the Ashes since the 1930s?

In general, though, I think it's unlikely to be anything other than a statistical oddity, and one being overstated. We beat the Kiwis at Lords in 2013 and 2015 and the Indians were destroyed in their last visit to the Oval, while both the last two Ashes Oval tests were dead rubbers. We've also been embarassed in two May tests in Leeds recently as well.
With Greene King IPA (they seem to be the "Official Beer" of England cricket sadly) and Carling being the main tipples on offer, I actually think it is sensible not to be much of a drinker at the Oval. I take your point re Headingley too, England haven't done well there at all in recent years with a big loss to Australia in 2009 having followed a large reverse v SA in 2008.

I met someone for a beer at tea-time on the Saturday and had the just about palatable Yardbird Pale Ale and had a chat while the Pakistan innings finished. I had just about got back to my seat in the evening session and Cook got out to Wahab.
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Old 18th August 2016, 12:16   #9
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With Greene King IPA (they seem to be the "Official Beer" of England cricket sadly) and Carling being the main tipples on offer, I actually think it is sensible not to be much of a drinker at the Oval. I take your point re Headingley too, England haven't done well there at all in recent years with a big loss to Australia in 2009 having followed a large reverse v SA in 2008.

I met someone for a beer at tea-time on the Saturday and had the just about palatable Yardbird Pale Ale and had a chat while the Pakistan innings finished. I had just about got back to my seat in the evening session and Cook got out to Wahab.
But don't they have the real ale bar open during the Tests? Also when I went to a T20 a couple of years back they had some kind of mini-sized bar (basically a counter with the barrel inside it and a pump) selling a micro-brewery cask beer. I was quite impressed they bothered to do that.

Also there is the Feathers "pub" under the Bedser Stand.
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Old 18th August 2016, 12:25   #10
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They had the microbrewery stand when i went to a t20 in June. Also went there a few years ago for a county match when they had a beer festival tent behind the pavilion. Only saw 2.3 overs of cricket thanks to persistent drizzle however.
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Old 18th August 2016, 12:31   #11
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But don't they have the real ale bar open during the Tests? Also when I went to a T20 a couple of years back they had some kind of mini-sized bar (basically a counter with the barrel inside it and a pump) selling a micro-brewery cask beer. I was quite impressed they bothered to do that.

Also there is the Feathers "pub" under the Bedser Stand.
I went to the Feathers for the jar or two at tea. Not a great range there, either. They did have a 'real ale barrel' near the main gates but that was about it and there was no indication if the choices were that great. I'm afraid the ECB have got themselves into bed with Greene King a little too much. County matches at different times have had their beer festivals and casks on sale for t20. I haven't been to t20 this year mind.
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Old 18th August 2016, 12:44   #12
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Re the party stands etc. To me it seems to have calmed down a bit from a peak in c2003. This was the generation of laddish 90s culture who read fhm/ loaded/zoo and drank loads at the cricket and went on a club 18-30 holiday. Entrance to a test was about 20 quid. I remember reading that after a particularly noisy day on headingley's west terrace that "cricket needed to fight the falaraki type thuggery that is becoming prevalent" or something like that.

Yes it is still noisy but I don't see as many 18-25 year olds getting absolutely smashed as I did over a decade ago.

Ps. I am not judging. I was one of those drinking twelve pints and then heading to the oak for a couple more then into town to somewhere like heaven and hell or planet earth. Good times.
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Old 18th August 2016, 13:30   #13
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They had the microbrewery stand when i went to a t20 in June. Also went there a few years ago for a county match when they had a beer festival tent behind the pavilion. Only saw 2.3 overs of cricket thanks to persistent drizzle getting completely ****ed however.
Is what I think you meant.
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Old 18th August 2016, 13:57   #14
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Tests since 2000

Played ~ Won ~ Draw ~ Lost ~ Ground

34 Tests 17 ~ 10 ~ 7 ~ Lords
17 Tests 8 ~ 4 ~ 5 ~ Oval
15 Tests 9 ~ 3 ~ 3 ~ Trent Bridge
14 Tests 8 ~ 3 ~ 3 ~ Edgbaston
14 Tests 7 ~ 1 ~ 6 ~ Headingley
12 Tests 8 ~ 3 ~ 1 ~ Old Trafford
6 Tests 6 ~ 6 ~ 0 ~ Riverside
3 Tests 2 ~ 1 ~ 0 ~ Sophia Gardens
2 Tests 1 ~ 1 ~ 0 ~ Rose Bowl
I was going to suggest maybe the slope at Lords causes problems for our bowlers and batsmen as much as any touring side since our players don't all play at Lords all the time (for their counties, although how much do centrally contracted players play for them at all?)

But that stat hardly suggests the suggestion about not doing well in London is correct. They could of course be talking aesthetically ie win but don't win well or with style.

One thing that doesn't highlight is who, not easy to do in quantitative stats, but the Riverside stat makes me wonder if we don't just play the soft centres there. So :

2016 vs SRL (Won)
2013 vs AUS (Won)
2009 vs WIN (Won)
2007 vs WIN (Won)
2005 vs BAN (Won)
2003 vs ZIM (Won)

So more or less holds true, not exactly tough opposition bar the aussies. Sri Lanka came here 'cold' and were hapless for their first 3 innings (out for under 120 each time) Maybe a tactical decision to play "up North" so early in the year/series/summer.

The aussie Test was nip and tuck for most of the Test, aussies were 109/0 chasing 299 to win when Swann took 2 wickets, Bresnan nipped out Warner and Broad then mopped up with final figures of 6/50 taking 6 of the last 7 batsmen as they collapsed for 56 runs.
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Old 18th August 2016, 14:38   #15
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I think there is a misconception that to sing and cheer your team on you have to be "****ed", yes I had a few beers at Edgbaston but I didn't need to get drunk to sing all the Barmy Army songs and have a bit of playful banter with the Aussie supporters. Plus when I drink beer I can **** till the cows come home and toilet ques can be loooong. Oh and I didn't get why there were no cash machines in Edgbaston, being my first time I assumed there'd be a few but having asked the steward I had to travel right to the other end out the ground (or something like that).

Back to the actual cricket though, do you guys reckon the ball swings far more up North/in the Midlands compared to in Ldn, which is why we're more of a threat as those conditions play into our two front line bowlers hands?
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Old 9th February 2018, 18:32   #16
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I didnt want to start a new thread for this so have shoved this at the bottom as it is likely that northern test grounds will be affected.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/...ted-ashes-test
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Old 9th February 2018, 20:34   #17
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But, also, we should never forget 1926. 1953, 1985 and 2009.
Too Late.
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Old 9th February 2018, 20:35   #18
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I didnt want to start a new thread for this so have shoved this at the bottom as it is likely that northern test grounds will be affected.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/...ted-ashes-test
Has to be the most inaccessible ground I have ever been too.
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Old 9th February 2018, 21:22   #19
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I didnt want to start a new thread for this so have shoved this at the bottom as it is likely that northern test grounds will be affected.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/...ted-ashes-test
Hampshire fans can already watch South Africa at home most weekends during the summer, not sure why they need to get extra matches.
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Old 9th February 2018, 21:28   #20
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Hampshire fans can already watch South Africa at home most weekends during the summer, not sure why they need to get extra matches.
Indeed. I live 20 mins walk from the ground and find it a drab, soulless place:

http://www.yahooovercowcorner.wordpr.../09/antipathy/
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