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Old Yesterday, 12:22   #1121
JRC67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Pietersen was the age Sam Curran is now when he joined Notts.

He was still in SA when I first became aware of him and he was an off-spinner and batting no.9

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...africa-1999-00

He obviously turned himself into an all-time great player, like Steve Smith did.

The point is there's time for Sam Curran to turn himself into a great batsman if he focuses on his batting. Whether there's the talent is another question but lots of people think there's talent there.

Where I think Pietersen was helped is by having to serve the qualification period. This allowed him to serve his apprenticeship in county cricket and he went into test cricket with a tried and tested game. Sam Curran hasn't had that. He's still learning his way and a combination of Surrey needing his bowling, the ECB managing his workload and the IPL means he's probably going to struggle to develop his batting unless injury intervenes and limts his bowling.
Particularly agree with the last comment. There is way too much international cricket and I'm not sure too much at a young age does help development. I feel Archer is probably a better player for his qualification period. 4 or 5 test series and 4 or 5 one day series every year is way too much for younger players and they need some time away from the spotlight to develop. There has to be a balance found that gives them the right amount of exposure.
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Old Yesterday, 12:42   #1122
JRC67
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
At his age weren't both Pietersen and Smith still bowlers who batted a bit?

I'm not convinced he's going to get much stronger and quicker. However it's unlikely he'll achieve his batting potential whilst he's still bowling.
I'm not that convinced he's going to get quicker either. Runs in pretty hard and he gets through his bowling action at the crease pretty quickly. It's hard to see where he could generate much more. Right knee could be a little less bent in his delivery and he could ģet his left arm higher to maybe add a bit of speed but could reduce the swing he gets. Watching him he looks like he's going to bowl quicker than he does.
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Old Yesterday, 14:35   #1123
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
Particularly agree with the last comment. There is way too much international cricket and I'm not sure too much at a young age does help development. I feel Archer is probably a better player for his qualification period. 4 or 5 test series and 4 or 5 one day series every year is way too much for younger players and they need some time away from the spotlight to develop. There has to be a balance found that gives them the right amount of exposure.
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Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old Yesterday, 14:52   #1124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
4 or 5 test series and 4 or 5 one day series every year is way too much for younger players and they need some time away from the spotlight to develop. There has to be a balance found that gives them the right amount of exposure.
They need more time playing First Class cricket with their counties, enjoying and developing their games, oh and being quite good will assist too. It'll do the young batsmen good to bang out a few centuries, to learn to bat for a few sessions and remember how it feels. Young bowlers need to get used to bowling 25 overs a day.

Many of these guys play too little cricket IMHO. I do understand that too much International cricket is bad because of the pressure, so let them play away from that scene occasionally. It won't have helped either Currran, nor James Vince, to be carrying drinks and not being with their counties. Not that they care too much when someone dangles an IPL contract in front of them though.
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Old Yesterday, 15:06   #1125
Sir Virgs and Zamora
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Pietersen was the age Sam Curran is now when he joined Notts.

He was still in SA when I first became aware of him and he was an off-spinner and batting no.9

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...africa-1999-00

He obviously turned himself into an all-time great player, like Steve Smith did.

The point is there's time for Sam Curran to turn himself into a great batsman if he focuses on his batting. Whether there's the talent is another question but lots of people think there's talent there.

Where I think Pietersen was helped is by having to serve the qualification period. This allowed him to serve his apprenticeship in county cricket and he went into test cricket with a tried and tested game. Sam Curran hasn't had that. He's still learning his way and a combination of Surrey needing his bowling, the ECB managing his workload and the IPL means he's probably going to struggle to develop his batting unless injury intervenes and limts his bowling.
I agree that KP had the time to develop before playing for England.

Not having the “obviously all time great like smith” - he was bloody good and was a joy to watch but not having all time great. Very very good but all time greats are head and shoulders above team mates. For some innings he was but not over his career. He was the next level up from the likes of Bell, trott etc but was the tier below all time greats like pointing, Sanga, kallis, Lara, sachin etc.

I think Curran needs a couple of years in county cricket. I thought he would be much quicker than he is, and agree with others he looks like he should be faster.
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Old Yesterday, 15:06   #1126
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
They need more time playing First Class cricket with their counties, enjoying and developing their games, oh and being quite good will assist too. It'll do the young batsmen good to bang out a few centuries, to learn to bat for a few sessions and remember how it feels. Young bowlers need to get used to bowling 25 overs a day.

Many of these guys play too little cricket IMHO. I do understand that too much International cricket is bad because of the pressure, so let them play away from that scene occasionally. It won't have helped either Currran, nor James Vince, to be carrying drinks and not being with their counties. Not that they care too much when someone dangles an IPL contract in front of them though.
The county season is March-September. The international season is all year round.
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Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old Yesterday, 16:09   #1127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
They need more time playing First Class cricket with their counties, enjoying and developing their games, oh and being quite good will assist too. It'll do the young batsmen good to bang out a few centuries, to learn to bat for a few sessions and remember how it feels. Young bowlers need to get used to bowling 25 overs a day.

Many of these guys play too little cricket IMHO. I do understand that too much International cricket is bad because of the pressure, so let them play away from that scene occasionally. It won't have helped either Currran, nor James Vince, to be carrying drinks and not being with their counties. Not that they care too much when someone dangles an IPL contract in front of them though.
To an extent, but county cricket is not currently a great test bed, pardon the pun, for test cricket. This is partly due to when the games are scheduled but also wicket preparation and selection policy of the counties too.

Clearly over the past 5 years, batters have struggled to spend time in the middle as you suggest as wickets have been rigged by many counties to force results. Similarly, batters won't get much experience of facing fast (short-pitched) bowling or high quality spin, as such players are in short supply and not favoured in county cricket. Conversely, there is limited incentive for young fast bowlers or specialist spinners to develop their game - better to focus on medium pace seam bowling or, if a spinner, your batting, if you want to get regular games.

In the end, a young player will only "come of age" in international cricket, or not, through extensive experience of facing international quality opposition. The concept of going back to county cricket to get time in the middle or getting into a rhythm with your bowling is mostly a myth.
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Old Yesterday, 17:17   #1128
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Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
In the end, a young player will only "come of age" in international cricket, or not, through extensive experience of facing international quality opposition. The concept of going back to county cricket to get time in the middle or getting into a rhythm with your bowling is mostly a myth.
Whatever complaints people have about the IPL, the quality of the opposition tends to be pretty good.
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Old Yesterday, 17:34   #1129
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
I agree that KP had the time to develop before playing for England.

Not having the “obviously all time great like smith” - he was bloody good and was a joy to watch but not having all time great. Very very good but all time greats are head and shoulders above team mates. For some innings he was but not over his career. He was the next level up from the likes of Bell, trott etc but was the tier below all time greats like pointing, Sanga, kallis, Lara, sachin etc.
Harsh not to count Steve Smith as an all-time great. He was head and shoulders above his Aussie team mates in a way Tendulkar wasn't above Dravid.
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Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old Yesterday, 17:52   #1130
AJ101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Harsh not to count Steve Smith as an all-time great. He was head and shoulders above his Aussie team mates in a way Tendulkar wasn't above Dravid.
He seems to be confusing Smith with KP?
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Old Yesterday, 18:11   #1131
JRC67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
To an extent, but county cricket is not currently a great test bed, pardon the pun, for test cricket. This is partly due to when the games are scheduled but also wicket preparation and selection policy of the counties too.

Clearly over the past 5 years, batters have struggled to spend time in the middle as you suggest as wickets have been rigged by many counties to force results. Similarly, batters won't get much experience of facing fast (short-pitched) bowling or high quality spin, as such players are in short supply and not favoured in county cricket. Conversely, there is limited incentive for young fast bowlers or specialist spinners to develop their game - better to focus on medium pace seam bowling or, if a spinner, your batting, if you want to get regular games.

In the end, a young player will only "come of age" in international cricket, or not, through extensive experience of facing international quality opposition. The concept of going back to county cricket to get time in the middle or getting into a rhythm with your bowling is mostly a myth.
You don't really get the chance to get extensive experience before you come of age. 5 matches as a batsman and a couple as a bowler. You can call it rhythm, being in nick or one of a dozen different names but there are a lot of moving parts in cricket and if one part is slightly out it's hard to bat or bowl. The scrutiny in international cricket and the quality of players makes it very difficult to make those small adjustments. Club cricketers are no different to test players in terms of knowing when something isn't quite right and very small margins make the difference between looking a millions dollars and rank awful. One of the big issues for some of the squad this summer is they have barely played cricket, they've just been in the squad. It's pretty hard to perform if you've sat on the balcony for a month and just turned your arm over in the nets or faced a bowling machine for the odd hour.

I'm 100% certain Curran would have gained more playing at Surrey than being in a 13 man squad and not playing. Why they need 13 man squads in known home conditions remains a bit of a mystery.
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