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Old 9th February 2016, 22:23   #6041
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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hang on GBG. You hate moores and yes he lost one series and was a shocking World Cup. Moores was not boss when kp was sacked. We had been successful since his fall out first time. What about falling out with flower (our coach who took us to number 1)
The KP/Moores thing was Moores' first spell.

Sacking KP after the Ashes didn't cure anything.

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We all know he was ****ed off by not being allowed time to rest (so he could fly around India for 6 weeks). And it was never the same since. Hence my point re feeling bigger than the team.
Mind you, Trott was never the same after not being given time off to rest. I think KP was right to be ****ed off. He should have been playing just tests and T20 as an effort to sensibly manage workloads. Like allowing players to go to the IPL to improve skills, that's another policy that has been quietly reversed.

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You can be right and go about things the wrong way.
Sure. But it's worth remembering he was right about Moores, right about the IPL, right about the importance of not wearing down players.

And then let's remember that the ECB were wrong about Moores, wrong about the IPL (and don't forget Stanford fiasco), wrong about the workload imposed on Trott, Swann etc. So why is KP continually painted as the villain in the piece by the organisation he correctly called out?
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:23   #6042
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You can be right and go about things the wrong way.
Yeah, like you and your technique of trying to talk to Geebes about it.
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:28   #6043
Sir Virgs and Zamora
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Re players improving skills by playing ipl. Can you name a single player who improved as a test player after playing ipl? I can't think of a good example other than possibly mccullum?
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:30   #6044
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GBG. How do you know re sacking did nothing? Maybe if we did not have an incompetent coach we would have won? We won another ashes series and away in saffer land plus gave India a good hiding. I don't understand why you slate moores but then pretend he might have been a bigger issue than missing kp. Contradictory
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:34   #6045
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Yeah, like you and your technique of trying to talk to Geebes about it.
What are you on about?
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:39   #6046
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Sure. But it's worth remembering he was right about Moores, right about the IPL, right about the importance of not wearing down players.

And then let's remember that the ECB were wrong about Moores, wrong about the IPL (and don't forget Stanford fiasco), wrong about the workload imposed on Trott, Swann etc. So why is KP continually painted as the villain in the piece by the organisation he correctly called out?
Pietersen isn't a villain, and I don't think he is painted as one. At the end of the day mistakes were made on both sides, and I'm sure if they could go back they would do things differently. Like I said, there's a right way and wrong way about going about things, and I think Pietersen has come out and stated he regretted what happened with Strauss and SA. That's the last I'll say on the issue unless you raise anything I haven't already heard, I would rather focus on the present England side, which looks exciting and progressive than keep going over old ground.
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:42   #6047
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Lol. Haven't seen the Man U comparison rolled out for a while. Top work
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:44   #6048
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Yeah, like you and your technique of trying to talk to Geebes about it.


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Re players improving skills by playing ipl. Can you name a single player who improved as a test player after playing ipl? I can't think of a good example other than possibly mccullum?
Well to keep on topic in tests Pietersen averaged 34.60 in Asia prior to IPL and 62.61 in tests after the IPL.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:52   #6049
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Well to keep on topic in tests Pietersen averaged 34.60 in Asia prior to IPL and 62.61 in tests after the IPL.
Which bit of Asia and what year? KP's most successful period in the IPL was in 2012; it was after that that things began to kick off.
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:58   #6050
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Re players improving skills by playing ipl. Can you name a single player who improved as a test player after playing ipl? I can't think of a good example other than possibly mccullum?
GBg gives KP as an example (who else).

But with KP it's little to do with technique. It's not what he learned about batting in the IPL that improved his test batting, but the exhilarating experience of hearing 50,000 Indians chanting his name that made him feel invincible; he transferred that feeling into his test batting when he returned after the 2011-12 IPL season and made 149 at Headingley v SA.
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Old 9th February 2016, 23:04   #6051
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Well to keep on topic in tests Pietersen averaged 34.60 in Asia prior to IPL and 62.61 in tests after the IPL.
What about average outside Asia in tests and ODI.

The Man U example works. Player gets too big for his boots and most successful coach in history moves them on. I know some people get hung up on the fact that international sport is different but the point stands.

I have not checked but what did cook average in Asia pre and post kp playing ipl?
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Old 9th February 2016, 23:07   #6052
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Time to take a break from this thread. The kp fan boys are too easy to wind up. I should stop it. He has not played for England for so long and yet they still cling on to the hope. It would be quite endearing if I did not feel such pity.

Enjoy the new era of flair cricket watching a team having fun and enjoying themselves.
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Old 9th February 2016, 23:14   #6053
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GBg gives KP as an example (who else).

But with KP it's little to do with technique. It's not what he learned about batting in the IPL that improved his test batting, but the exhilarating experience of hearing 50,000 Indians chanting his name that made him feel invincible; he transferred that feeling into his test batting when he returned after the 2011-12 IPL season and made 149 at Headingley v SA.
It's about experience of foreign conditions, it's about picking Rahul Dravid's brain on playing in those conditions, it's about keeping up to speed with developments in limited overs cricket.

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Time to take a break from this thread. The kp fan boys are too easy to wind up. I should stop it. He has not played for England for so long and yet they still cling on to the hope. It would be quite endearing if I did not feel such pity.

Enjoy the new era of flair cricket watching a team having fun and enjoying themselves.
Yep, it's the beginning of an era of cricketers brought up on Pietersen and trying to play like him and win like him. It's attacking, it's without mood hoovers and so players play with a smile. I love it.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 23:22   #6054
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It's about experience of foreign conditions, it's about picking Rahul Dravid's brain on playing in those conditions, it's about keeping up to speed with developments in limited overs cricket.
I was quoting KP himself.
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Old 9th February 2016, 23:37   #6055
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You might be surprised to see this coming from me, but I rate Bell's performance in the 2013 home series as superior to Cook's. 2010/11. I suspect that the averages don't support me, but the fact was that all bar Collingwood in the Cook series all cashed in at various points in the series. In 2013 Bell nigh on played a lone hand in a series where nearly all of England's batsmen were in poor form or found out by a high quality Australian attack. In 2010/11 the bowlers had usually done their job or they were playing in more clement conditions against an Australian attack that was rather shambolic with a silly spinner's pick and the likes of Hilfenhaus, Bollinger bowling garbage and Mitch out of sorts bar Perth. It is something that possibly won't be agreed with by too many, but I'll stand by it.
Think Cook's greatest series was clearly India in 2012/13. That was a truly series-winning effort, although without the brilliance of KP in Mumbai his efforts may have gone in vain. Bell in 2013 was superb too
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Old 10th February 2016, 01:37   #6056
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Old 10th February 2016, 09:11   #6057
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Think Cook's greatest series was clearly India in 2012/13. That was a truly series-winning effort, although without the brilliance of KP in Mumbai his efforts may have gone in vain. Bell in 2013 was superb too
I'd agree with that and I had the pleasure of being in Mumbai for that test. I think it is highly likely Mumbai will have a test late this year too and I will be across for that. Although Cook set up the innings by deadening any momentum had through their spinners, it was Pietersen who neutered them by battering them around the park. As I have said all along, Cook's outstanding contribution to England is his ability in the last few years to have developed into one of the finest players of spin in Asia that England has had. The reason why Cook at this juncture is not a great player (as I've also said) is that his performances against the top pace attacks just don't warrant it. I see that Bell's failures in Ashes are mentioned, with 3 series averaging in the mid 20s or less. Cook averaged mid 20s in 4 Ashes series.
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Old 10th February 2016, 09:13   #6058
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I agree, I think Bell's performance in that Ashes series was head and shoulders above anything that Cook has achieved. Personally, I'd put it higher than anything KP has achieved too. Simply awesome.
Both of us in 'la sala' Sans!
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Old 10th February 2016, 09:29   #6059
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Re players improving skills by playing ipl. Can you name a single player who improved as a test player after playing ipl? I can't think of a good example other than possibly mccullum?
Possibly Warner. Remember he was a t20 slugger who went around the world at first, if anything he's never quite achieved as much as he could have done at international limited overs level but has developed his game as he's gone along, went absolutely mad in shield cricket when given an extended opportunity and is now the world's best test opener.
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Old 10th February 2016, 10:05   #6060
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Possibly Warner. Remember he was a t20 slugger who went around the world at first, if anything he's never quite achieved as much as he could have done at international limited overs level but has developed his game as he's gone along, went absolutely mad in shield cricket when given an extended opportunity and is now the world's best test opener.
I know we like to correlate random things but it's difficult to say what effect the IPL has. Take AB, he's has been playing it since 2008 and he's averaged almost 50 or higher every year since then (including some of the slowest innings ever). I wouldn't conclude that the IPL helped that but it didn't seem to hinder it. I do think he did learn the skills that make him one of the most feared batsmen in every form. In tests, that may not translate to his full potential yet, but if SA are 200/2 or 3 and AB is getting going, people start to get scared
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