India v England Second Test Chennai Feb 13th-17th

[1000yardstare]

Originally Posted by Chin Music

The outstanding contribution in the first test in Sri Lanka was Broad's in the first innings.

In the second test, it was Anderson in the first innings.

In the first Chennai test, the outstanding bowling contribution was again Anderson in the 2nd innings.

Yes the spinners might have taken more wickets but it was more the weight of overs rather than consistent quality, although both Bess and Leach had their moments in the last test.

Agree weight of overs for spin. In the 2nd Test in SL Root didn't bother with the seamers giving them only 4 overs. Who knows how many they would have got after picking up 10 wickets in the first innings.

[Sir Coolerking]

Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora

I guess the analysts look at how the wickets come and the percentage of bad balls etc. How many of Dom’s wickets were due to good bowling? They will have data on that. How many shocking deliveries didn’t get punished? How many of the runs leach conceded were due to bad bowling etc? They will know all of that.

One of my best mates is a spurs fan and we have been discussing all season how spurs and Brighton were two massive statistical quirks. When spurs were top of the league it was because Kane and son couldn’t miss and Lloris kept making saves. Whereas Brighton created loads of chances and conceding very few shots but kept finding ways of not winning. For example I don’t think we have “lost” a single home game this season on expected goals for an against but incredibly we have only won once. It was almost impossible for us to keep conceding freak goals and wonder strikes, just as it was impossible for spurs to keep winning. Both sides have regressed to the mean.

I guess England apply the same theory to Bess. He lost it in the second innings of the last test in a way not dissimilar to moeen in the ashes.

And yet I wonder what might've happened if Kohli had spooned a full toss to mid on. He effectively took 5-125 in the First Test and 17 wickets at 22.4 in Sri Lanka. These must surely be the best figures to ever get dropped for.

[Sir Virgs and Zamora]

Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking

And yet I wonder what might've happened if Kohli had spooned a full toss to mid on. He effectively took 5-125 in the First Test and 17 wickets at 22.4 in Sri Lanka. These must surely be the best figures to ever get dropped for.

I raise you sir Andrew Caddick.

10 wickets in an ashes test. 7 in the second innings. Never played again

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

[1000yardstare]

Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking

And yet I wonder what might've happened if Kohli had spooned a full toss to mid on. He effectively took 5-125 in the First Test and 17 wickets at 22.4 in Sri Lanka. These must surely be the best figures to ever get dropped for.

You mean 17 at 22.41 in SL & India. Still the best figures to be dropped for. I can't see him playing again.

[Chin Music]

Originally Posted by 1000yardstare

Agree weight of overs for spin. In the 2nd Test in SL Root didn't bother with the seamers giving them only 4 overs. Who knows how many they would have got after picking up 10 wickets in the first innings.

As was rightly pointed out, Bess has got wickets with some filth but he’s had his moments where he’s looked decent. The seamers have had spin friendly conditions where there is no pace, bounce or sideways movement for them but they have punched above their weight. Only Curran didn’t really look up to much of all the seam bowlers played across the three tests.

[Sir Coolerking]

Originally Posted by Chin Music

As was rightly pointed out, Bess has got wickets with some filth but he’s had his moments where he’s looked decent. The seamers have had spin friendly conditions where there is no pace, bounce or sideways movement for them but they have punched above their weight. Only Curran didn’t really look up to much of all the seam bowlers played across the three tests.

And that's why I wouldn't pick Woakes, not quick enough and doesn't do anything with the ball in the air.

[blackeyedangles]

I certainly felt that Moeen should play on this tour and said as much before, but I'm also kind of surprised that they've been so explicit in saying that Bess has been dropped for inconsistent performance. It seems like a very rapid about-face from all of the commentary and buzz that they would be backing Dom Bess to the hilt to grow and develop and eventually become England's spinner. I could see them doing it if he'd been pumped for 0-100. Given everything they've said about "rest and rotation", they had an out.

I do think we'll see him again, probably later on this tour.

When you compare Bess and Leach, though, it certainly seems like in general (a few excellent deliveries aside), Bess is getting wickets through luck and batsman error much of the time, while Leach is a second-innings specialist. Once the pitches start to turn he can do well. Apparently he now has 14 wickets @ 57.1 in first innings and 36 wickets @ 20 in second innings.

Which comes to what you really want a spinner for: is it about trying to bowl economically in both innings and pick up wickets, or do you really want someone who can go in for the kill and win the Test match on the fifth day? Expressed in those terms, it's a no-brainer, but it does make you appreciate how fortunate teams are who have spinners that can do both!

Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking

And that's why I wouldn't pick Woakes, not quick enough and doesn't do anything with the ball in the air.

One has to think that the Ashes down under would play into a Stone selection. Not sure that Jimmy is an automatic pick for those Tests; Woakes' overseas record is famously not as good albeit improving - and now, you've got to consider whether Archer could get injured. Tbh with 17 tests in a calendar year they may well want to take a look at all of the bowlers.

[1000yardstare]

Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking

And that's why I wouldn't pick Woakes, not quick enough and doesn't do anything with the ball in the air.

They might be worried about the batting.

Foakes
Ali
Broad
Stone
Leach

[Michelle Fivefer]

Originally Posted by Chin Music

As was rightly pointed out, Bess has got wickets with some filth but he’s had his moments where he’s looked decent .

Napoleon always wanted soldiers who were lucky.

[sharky]

Originally Posted by 1000yardstare

They might be worried about the batting.

Foakes
Ali
Broad
Stone
Leach

I've not seen Stone bat but that's really not a bad tail. Ali should be one of the best number 8s in the world and in fact is being suggested as a number 3, Broad probably won't get as much uncomfortable short stuff and Leach's batting is pretty reliable.

[1000yardstare]

Originally Posted by sharky

I've not seen Stone bat but that's really not a bad tail. Ali should be one of the best number 8s in the world and in fact is being suggested as a number 3, Broad probably won't get as much uncomfortable short stuff and Leach's batting is pretty reliable.

I hope it's Stone rather than Woakes. Stone needs more Tests if he is going to Australia with Archer and Wood.

[ConfusedMale]

Moeen tend to do well against India, and we do have a knack of getting people back in form. Having said that, as an India supporter, I'm happy with the changes England has made.

[Rebelstar]

Originally Posted by 1000yardstare

They might be worried about the batting.

Foakes
Ali
Broad
Stone
Leach

As ever! Funny thing is when the batting flops it's the bowling they change more than the batting!! That obviously ties in with placing more importance on batting depth over strength, although I think the top order has become more settled of recent times

[Jock McTuffnel v3]

Moeen's test batting average in last 4 years : 20.85

In his last test he scored 4 and 0 in a huge defeat vs the Ozzies - before being dropped and then others saved the series.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

That's before we talk about the World Cup.

Baffling.

[Rebelstar]

Originally Posted by blackeyedangles

When you compare Bess and Leach, though, it certainly seems like in general (a few excellent deliveries aside), Bess is getting wickets through luck and batsman error much of the time, while Leach is a second-innings specialist. Once the pitches start to turn he can do well. Apparently he now has 14 wickets @ 57.1 in first innings and 36 wickets @ 20 in second innings.

Which comes to what you really want a spinner for: is it about trying to bowl economically in both innings and pick up wickets, or do you really want someone who can go in for the kill and win the Test match on the fifth day? Expressed in those terms, it's a no-brainer, but it does make you appreciate how fortunate teams are who have spinners that can do both!

To be fair to Leach his averages in 1st innings of a Test has limited size of sample, in fact the only near reasonable size samples are 2nd and 4th innings.


1st Inns (3): 3 wkts @ 85.67.

Bowled in the 1st innings vs AUS at home (2/83) and twice in Sri Lanka (1/55 and 0/119) Anderson took 6/40 in that 1st Test 1st Innings, I'd question why Leach bowled 38 overs whilst Anderson and others bowled 26-29 including Bess 0/76 and Curran 1/60 bowled less than 20....

Spinners 0/195 off 64 overs, seamers 10/184 off 75.3 overs, so seamers took all the wickets for less runs off slightly more overs which is inevitable with an extra bowler in that category


2nd Inns (9) : 11 wkts @ 43.96

2/205 in New Zealand crippling much chance of a decent average, 0/26 against Ireland adding runs and no wickets and even 1/37 at home against the aussies across two Tests not helping much, at least he wasn't bowled excessively and rather pointlessly when pace clearly won the day against Sri Lanka.

If you split it into vs NZL and vs rest it goes to 2 wkts @ 103 vs 9 wkts @ 37.56, the latter not nearly as bad so question marks what he was doing in New Zealand in the first place.


3rd Inns (4) : 11 wkts @ 25.91

Would be even better but for a 1/46 vs aussies at home and those were his match figures, and 1/58 in the same series in which he took 3/37 and 4/49 in the 4th innings and did reasonably overall with series figueres and an average similar to his 3rd innings average (12 wkts @ 25.83)


4th Inns (7) : 25 wkts @ 17.52

On face value excellent, look at each effort and his WORST return in the 4th innings was 2/61 in New Zealand. In a mere SEVEN bowls he has taken 4+ wickets four times, his 4/76 in the previous Test here only his 4th best effort!


I'm sure his 1st innings figures will improve with proper handling and time, unfortunate perhaps England went into a Test in Sri Lanka with two spinners and they bowled for no reward which accounts for near half his runs conceded - 119/257 - so near doubling his average in one hit...

[Rebelstar]

Not surprised they've rested Anderson, Bess is a little more odd unless they are thinking of playing Ali and maybe either at #3 and move everyone down the order bar Root.

I mean Bess may have a poor 4th innings bowling average, but 30.00, 31.00 and 26.00 in the other three - oddly exact but hey ho. Bowl Bess in 1st or 2nd, Leach more in 3rd or 4th

[Sir Virgs and Zamora]

Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3

Moeen's test batting average in last 4 years : 20.85

In his last test he scored 4 and 0 in a huge defeat vs the Ozzies - before being dropped and then others saved the series.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

That's before we talk about the World Cup.

Baffling.

Any reason why you didn’t include his bowing average for the last 4 years? I assume it was an oversight so I am helping you out because you must have picked last four years for a reason.

His bowing average is 29.95 for 83 wickets. As a point of comparison the best spinner England have had for decades Swann had a comparable career average of 29.96 and averaged 22 with the bat.

So for some reason you are not happy with a bowler who has virtually identical figures as the best spin bowler for decades.

[Jock McTuffnel v3]

Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora

Any reason why you didn’t include his bowing average for the last 4 years? I assume it was an oversight so I am helping you out because you must have picked last four years for a reason.

His bowing average is 29.95 for 83 wickets. As a point of comparison the best spinner England have had for decades Swann had a comparable career average of 29.96 and averaged 22 with the bat.

So for some reason you are not happy with a bowler who has virtually identical figures as the best spin bowler for decades.

Why did he get dropped from the test and ODI teams then ?

[paulsre]

Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking

And yet I wonder what might've happened if Kohli had spooned a full toss to mid on. He effectively took 5-125 in the First Test and 17 wickets at 22.4 in Sri Lanka. These must surely be the best figures to ever get dropped for.

Charles Marriott took 11 wickets (5-37 and 6-59) for England v West Indies in his only Test, aged 37, at The Oval in 1933, thus finishing with a Test bowling average of 8.72. He did go on the tour of India the following winter but wasn't selected for any of the Tests.

As the Test was the last of the summer of 1933 I suppose you could say he didn't get dropped as such, he just happened to only play once.

[blackeyedangles]

Originally Posted by Rebelstar

To be fair to Leach his averages in 1st innings of a Test has limited size of sample, in fact the only near reasonable size samples are 2nd and 4th innings.


1st Inns (3): 3 wkts @ 85.67.

Bowled in the 1st innings vs AUS at home (2/83) and twice in Sri Lanka (1/55 and 0/119) Anderson took 6/40 in that 1st Test 1st Innings, I'd question why Leach bowled 38 overs whilst Anderson and others bowled 26-29 including Bess 0/76 and Curran 1/60 bowled less than 20....

Spinners 0/195 off 64 overs, seamers 10/184 off 75.3 overs, so seamers took all the wickets for less runs off slightly more overs which is inevitable with an extra bowler in that category


2nd Inns (9) : 11 wkts @ 43.96

2/205 in New Zealand crippling much chance of a decent average, 0/26 against Ireland adding runs and no wickets and even 1/37 at home against the aussies across two Tests not helping much, at least he wasn't bowled excessively and rather pointlessly when pace clearly won the day against Sri Lanka.

If you split it into vs NZL and vs rest it goes to 2 wkts @ 103 vs 9 wkts @ 37.56, the latter not nearly as bad so question marks what he was doing in New Zealand in the first place.


3rd Inns (4) : 11 wkts @ 25.91

Would be even better but for a 1/46 vs aussies at home and those were his match figures, and 1/58 in the same series in which he took 3/37 and 4/49 in the 4th innings and did reasonably overall with series figueres and an average similar to his 3rd innings average (12 wkts @ 25.83)


4th Inns (7) : 25 wkts @ 17.52

On face value excellent, look at each effort and his WORST return in the 4th innings was 2/61 in New Zealand. In a mere SEVEN bowls he has taken 4+ wickets four times, his 4/76 in the previous Test here only his 4th best effort!


I'm sure his 1st innings figures will improve with proper handling and time, unfortunate perhaps England went into a Test in Sri Lanka with two spinners and they bowled for no reward which accounts for near half his runs conceded - 119/257 - so near doubling his average in one hit...

Thanks for that - important caveats for the analysis and shows not to take any one stat too seriously without digging in!