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Old 12th February 2021, 13:54   #61
Sir Virgs and Zamora
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Why did he get dropped from the test and ODI teams then ?
Because he lost all form and was battling mental health issues, I think.
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Old 12th February 2021, 13:55   #62
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Why did he get dropped from the test and ODI teams then ?
It's good to have Mo back just to see Jock get so wound up by it.
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Old 12th February 2021, 14:21   #63
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Because he lost all form and was battling mental health issues, I think.
And averages 65 with the ball vs Oz.

Luckily we don't have the Ashes next winter.... wait what ?
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Old 12th February 2021, 14:59   #64
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I notice that Root is one win away from getting most test wins as England captain. He's currently level with Michael Vaughan.
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Old 12th February 2021, 15:06   #65
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I notice that Root is one win away from getting most test wins as England captain. He's currently level with Michael Vaughan.
Something to look forward to when NZ arrive then.
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Old 12th February 2021, 15:25   #66
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Serious question jock.

Would you rather
1) moeen fails and England lose
2) moeen makes a ton and takes 8 wickets as England wrap up a famous victory.
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Old 12th February 2021, 15:47   #67
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I notice that Root is one win away from getting most test wins as England captain. He's currently level with Michael Vaughan.
Unlike Vaughan it won't be mostly made up of wins over Bangladesh and weak kiwi and windies sides :

Vaughan (Captain)

vs BAN/NZL/WIN : P23 W20 D2 L1
vs AUS/SAF : P17 W6 D5 L6
vs IND/PAK/SRL : P11 W0 D7 L4

Not a single Test win against Pakistan, India or Sri Lanka, 20 against the sides he captained not far off half his Tests against, and two noteworthy series wins in South Africa and in the Ashes in 2005 - skin of the teeth stuff in 2005, add the margins together and you don't reach double figures! (get halfway)

Root (Captain)

vs WIN/SRL/SAF/IRE : P22 W17 D0 L5
vs AUS/NZL : P14 W2 D4 L8
vs IND/PAK : P11 W7 D2 L2

windies remain relatively weak, South Africa not exactly firing like a good 'un such that since 13/14 losing to Australia they have won 13 series of which seven have been over Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, West Indies or Sri Lanka... and they've lost five of their last seven.

Both topped up a lot with easy wins, were there such easy wins in the past? Root does have the better record against the subcontinent sides, I could include Sri Lanka but they're a relative nobody these days, would add a 5-0 to Root's record.

I think should also be mentioned Strauss managed 23 wins in 50 Tests as captain, is around par for the course for any captain in charge long enough.... Cook 24 from 59

Interesting Cook didn't have a good % of tosses won, nor did Vaughan, both 47% or thereabouts, not compared to Root (59.57%) and Strauss (56.00%)

And of course helps to have bowlers and batsmen of a decent quality to win you games, not that England haven't gone from winning handsomely to losing pitifully in a few back to back games....
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Old 12th February 2021, 15:48   #68
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Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Serious question jock.

Would you rather
1) moeen fails and England lose
2) moeen makes a ton and takes 8 wickets as England wrap up a famous victory.
3) Moeen not play

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Old 12th February 2021, 16:12   #69
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Unlike Vaughan it won't be mostly made up of wins over Bangladesh and weak kiwi and windies sides :

Vaughan (Captain)

vs BAN/NZL/WIN : P23 W20 D2 L1
vs AUS/SAF : P17 W6 D5 L6
vs IND/PAK/SRL : P11 W0 D7 L4

Not a single Test win against Pakistan, India or Sri Lanka, 20 against the sides he captained not far off half his Tests against, and two noteworthy series wins in South Africa and in the Ashes in 2005 - skin of the teeth stuff in 2005, add the margins together and you don't reach double figures! (get halfway)

Root (Captain)

vs WIN/SRL/SAF/IRE : P22 W17 D0 L5
vs AUS/NZL : P14 W2 D4 L8
vs IND/PAK : P11 W7 D2 L2

windies remain relatively weak, South Africa not exactly firing like a good 'un such that since 13/14 losing to Australia they have won 13 series of which seven have been over Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, West Indies or Sri Lanka... and they've lost five of their last seven.

Both topped up a lot with easy wins, were there such easy wins in the past? Root does have the better record against the subcontinent sides, I could include Sri Lanka but they're a relative nobody these days, would add a 5-0 to Root's record.

I think should also be mentioned Strauss managed 23 wins in 50 Tests as captain, is around par for the course for any captain in charge long enough.... Cook 24 from 59

Interesting Cook didn't have a good % of tosses won, nor did Vaughan, both 47% or thereabouts, not compared to Root (59.57%) and Strauss (56.00%)

And of course helps to have bowlers and batsmen of a decent quality to win you games, not that England haven't gone from winning handsomely to losing pitifully in a few back to back games....
Really interesting stats. I would argue SL are much weaker now. Probably Pakistan too. Australiaís obviously are. As are the saffers.

It makes me wonder whether many fans look at England and say ďthat was a really poor England sideĒ - has there been one since nasser was captain? I would say we have never been poor in the way others clearly have been.
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Old 12th February 2021, 17:00   #70
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Really interesting stats. I would argue SL are much weaker now. Probably Pakistan too. Australiaís obviously are. As are the saffers.

It makes me wonder whether many fans look at England and say ďthat was a really poor England sideĒ - has there been one since nasser was captain? I would say we have never been poor in the way others clearly have been.
I would have said that the England team between late 2013 and mid 2015 was poor before getting themselves together in the Lordís New Zealand home test match. I make you right. Nearly all sides have much weaker batting lineups compared to 10 years ago. I include India in that although they have the strongest fast bowling depth that they have ever had.

New Zealand are probably an exception although how they would fare if they played more away from home I donít know.
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Old 12th February 2021, 17:03   #71
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I would have said that the England team between late 2013 and mid 2015 was poor before getting themselves together in the Lordís New Zealand home test match. I make you right. Nearly all sides have much weaker batting lineups compared to 10 years ago. I include India in that although they have the strongest fast bowling depth that they have ever had.

New Zealand are probably an exception although how they would fare if they played more away from home I donít know.
Indeed, hard to gauge NZ. They have found a way to win on dead pitches at home, but they would appear not to have the spin options to win in Asia and got destroyed in Australia. The 2 Tests in England will be interesting even if they're seemingly just using them as a warm up for the Championship Final.
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Old 12th February 2021, 17:30   #72
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Given that the decisions have already been made, the only real question for this test is Woakes or Stone. Although I would like to see Stone given a shot, I suspect they will give it to Woakes.
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Old 12th February 2021, 17:50   #73
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Serious question jock.

Would you rather
1) moeen fails and England lose
2) moeen makes a ton and takes 8 wickets as England wrap up a famous victory.
England to win or at worst not lose.

Seems mad to pick players who can't be in the Ashes squad.
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Old 12th February 2021, 18:10   #74
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Interesting article in the Telegraph on "expected average" - probably explains Bess's dropping.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/...er-benefitted/

Expected average is most useful when directly comparing how two bowlers bowled in the same games. Consider the performances of Dom Bess and Jack Leach in Sri Lanka. Bessís 12 wickets at 21.3 dwarfed Leachís 10 at 35.5 apiece, seeming to endorse his role as Englandís first spinner.

Yet it was revealing that Root did not use the two according to this hierarchy: Leach was entrusted with 25 more overs across the two Tests.

The verdict from expected wickets endorses Rootís approach and indeed the eye test: Bess returned an expected average of 35.9 in the series, nine more than Leachís 26.9.
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Old 12th February 2021, 18:10   #75
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England to win or at worst not lose.

Seems mad to pick players who can't be in the Ashes squad.
I guess that if he tours we will have to hope he doesnít get a massive cut on his spinning finger but play because the selectors took someone on tour as backup who was unselectable this time.
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Old 12th February 2021, 18:19   #76
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Napoleon always wanted soldiers who were lucky.
Think that was generals, rather than soldiers MF. He also said "God is not on the side of the big battalions but on the side of the best shots"


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Old 12th February 2021, 19:39   #77
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Unlike Vaughan it won't be mostly made up of wins over Bangladesh and weak kiwi and windies sides :

Vaughan (Captain)

vs BAN/NZL/WIN : P23 W20 D2 L1
vs AUS/SAF : P17 W6 D5 L6
vs IND/PAK/SRL : P11 W0 D7 L4

Not a single Test win against Pakistan, India or Sri Lanka, 20 against the sides he captained not far off half his Tests against, and two noteworthy series wins in South Africa and in the Ashes in 2005 - skin of the teeth stuff in 2005, add the margins together and you don't reach double figures! (get halfway)

Root (Captain)

vs WIN/SRL/SAF/IRE : P22 W17 D0 L5
vs AUS/NZL : P14 W2 D4 L8
vs IND/PAK : P11 W7 D2 L2

windies remain relatively weak, South Africa not exactly firing like a good 'un such that since 13/14 losing to Australia they have won 13 series of which seven have been over Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, West Indies or Sri Lanka... and they've lost five of their last seven.

Both topped up a lot with easy wins, were there such easy wins in the past? Root does have the better record against the subcontinent sides, I could include Sri Lanka but they're a relative nobody these days, would add a 5-0 to Root's record.

I think should also be mentioned Strauss managed 23 wins in 50 Tests as captain, is around par for the course for any captain in charge long enough.... Cook 24 from 59

Interesting Cook didn't have a good % of tosses won, nor did Vaughan, both 47% or thereabouts, not compared to Root (59.57%) and Strauss (56.00%)

And of course helps to have bowlers and batsmen of a decent quality to win you games, not that England haven't gone from winning handsomely to losing pitifully in a few back to back games....
Vaughan did an outstanding job as captain to win the Ashes in 2005. I would say he barely put a foot wrong in an absolute pressure-cooker series.

Also when he was captain England were just a few years on from being bottom of the pile, so it was a different period. You could say 2005 represented the culmination of the first 5 years to get England back in shape, and now we are at year 21 of that process.
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Old 12th February 2021, 19:39   #78
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England to win or at worst not lose.

Seems mad to pick players who can't be in the Ashes squad.

How so! This is India, not Australia.
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Old 12th February 2021, 19:59   #79
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How so! This is India, not Australia.
Exactly this isn't a lions tour.
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Old 12th February 2021, 20:07   #80
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Napoleon always wanted soldiers who were lucky.
some bowlers are like that. In his early days Ian Botham took wickets with half volleys and long hops.
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