Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > England
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 1st March 2014, 16:32   #21
Hector
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Southampton
Team(s): Deportivo Finance, Hampshire, Berkshire
Age: 38
Posts: 2,948
Ian Bell selected as back-up for the T20 team. Not sure whether to laugh or give up with the selectors. No T20 game for 3 years, then gets called up to the national side!

Dont worry about proving yourself in the domestic game or the format. If your face fits......
__________________
www.yahooovercowcorner.wordpress.com


@YahoooverCC
Hector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2014, 18:16   #22
Michelle Fivefer
Posting Goddess
 
Michelle Fivefer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North West England
Team(s): England, Lancashire
Posts: 42,087
He's going as cover. Broad could do with a bit of help with the captaincy.
__________________
As balanced and focused as the next man
Michelle Fivefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2014, 19:41   #23
Hector
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Southampton
Team(s): Deportivo Finance, Hampshire, Berkshire
Age: 38
Posts: 2,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
He's going as cover. Broad could do with a bit of help with the captaincy.
Send Mike Brearley over then.
__________________
www.yahooovercowcorner.wordpress.com


@YahoooverCC
Hector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2014, 20:14   #24
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 27,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
He's going as cover. Broad could do with a bit of help with the captaincy.
Then send for Michael Vaughan!
geoff_boycotts_grandmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2014, 14:18   #25
Northantsfanone
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,866
I uncovered some dodgy practices going on at Twenty20 games around match fixing and the ACU just tell you to eff off reporting on it. They simply prefer to hide it and hope it goes away, rather than act. If you read Ed Hawkins book on Indian bookies you would not be surprised how many player and officials have their nose in the trough
Northantsfanone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2014, 15:39   #26
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Then send for Michael Vaughan!
It does seem weird that if Broad wanted help with the captaincy they would send for someone who has captained one England tour game in a decade of cricket and very unlikely to be worth a place in the team. If only there was one of the greatest T20 players in world cricket with international captaincy experience knocking about.
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2014, 16:54   #27
Psyduck
Posting God
 
Psyduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Manchester
Team(s): England, Lancashire, Man Utd
Posts: 15,871
Just listening to an interview with Ashley Giles. What a muppet. His desperation for the top job is slightly nausea inducing.
Psyduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2014, 14:49   #28
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,833
So Flower is to be given a role to head Elite Coaching at ECB.

As much as Flower can be respected for the success he's achieved with England it has to be remembered that during his tenure not a single new player, bar Trott, has been introduced and succeeded in the test side, and only really Morgan in the ODI side. (I'm ignoring T20s).

At the same time, the following have played for England but ended up with their technique and/or mental state in tatters

Trott
Prior
Finn
Rankin
Kerrigan
(Morgan)
Panesar
Tremlett
Bairstow
Root
Compton
Dernbach
Kieswetter

Most worryingly, a large number have been messed up in past 12 months.

I saw Rankin bowl against the Aussies in the ODIs in England in September and he looked a handful. Why, then, 3 months later could he barely bowl in a test, form he continued into the ODIs?

18 months ago Bairstow smashed Steyn and Morkel around at Lords. Now it doesn't look like he knows which way to hold a bat.

Compton scored two centuries in NZ but three months later looked so scared and confused, one wonders if he could ever score an international run ever again.

Joe Root breezed into international cricket, scoring runs for fun. Now he's probably a better bowler than batsman.

Finn, God knows...

We've also broken Swann and are at the point of breaking Anderson.

Something is rotten at the heart of Team ECB, and its only going to stink some more. They may have thought that by sacking KP, they've excised the cancer, but as the debacle in the Windies is showing its debatable if that was really the problem.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2014, 15:03   #29
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
So Flower is to be given a role to head Elite Coaching at ECB.

As much as Flower can be respected for the success he's achieved with England it has to be remembered that during his tenure not a single new player, bar Trott, has been introduced and succeeded in the test side, and only really Morgan in the ODI side. (I'm ignoring T20s).

At the same time, the following have played for England but ended up with their technique and/or mental state in tatters

Trott
Prior
Finn
Rankin
Kerrigan
(Morgan)
Panesar
Tremlett
Bairstow
Root
Compton
Dernbach
Kieswetter

Most worryingly, a large number have been messed up in past 12 months.

I saw Rankin bowl against the Aussies in the ODIs in England in September and he looked a handful. Why, then, 3 months later could he barely bowl in a test, form he continued into the ODIs?

18 months ago Bairstow smashed Steyn and Morkel around at Lords. Now it doesn't look like he knows which way to hold a bat.

Compton scored two centuries in NZ but three months later looked so scared and confused, one wonders if he could ever score an international run ever again.

Joe Root breezed into international cricket, scoring runs for fun. Now he's probably a better bowler than batsman.

Finn, God knows...

We've also broken Swann and are at the point of breaking Anderson.

Something is rotten at the heart of Team ECB, and its only going to stink some more. They may have thought that by sacking KP, they've excised the cancer, but as the debacle in the Windies is showing its debatable if that was really the problem.
It is difficult to blame Flower for the quick bowlers, surely Aussie agent Saker has to be blamed for that and surely Tremlett is a victim of his own injuries, which he was rather susceptible to long before Flower took charge.

The batting is a different matter though and he had to take some of the blame though quite why Gooch is in a job still I don't know.
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2014, 15:05   #30
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,332
Excellent news. Our most successful ever coach gets a senior role. We just need to find a space for Strauss now and the future will be bright.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2014, 15:11   #31
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
It is difficult to blame Flower for the quick bowlers, surely Aussie agent Saker has to be blamed for that and surely Tremlett is a victim of his own injuries, which he was rather susceptible to long before Flower took charge.

The batting is a different matter though and he had to take some of the blame though quite why Gooch is in a job still I don't know.
Perhaps, but the batting and bowling coaches are/were employed under Flower's auspices. We also know that the data-driven approach to coaching, which has had its successes, was implemented by Flower and has spread to all disciplines.

And SVaZ, I agree, Flower was a great success- a success at taking a mature side and steering it through its peak years. However, I have seen little evidence over the same period that he is particularly qualified to work, as the ECB puts it:

Quote:
with the "next generation of England players and coaches".
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2014, 04:27   #32
beefy
World Class
 
beefy's Avatar
Bulldog spirit
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London Town
Team(s): England & Arsenal
Posts: 7,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
So Flower is to be given a role to head Elite Coaching at ECB.

As much as Flower can be respected for the success he's achieved with England it has to be remembered that during his tenure not a single new player, bar Trott, has been introduced and succeeded in the test side, and only really Morgan in the ODI side. (I'm ignoring T20s).

At the same time, the following have played for England but ended up with their technique and/or mental state in tatters

Trott
Prior
Finn
Rankin
Kerrigan
(Morgan)
Panesar
Tremlett
Bairstow
Root
Compton
Dernbach
Kieswetter

Most worryingly, a large number have been messed up in past 12 months.

I saw Rankin bowl against the Aussies in the ODIs in England in September and he looked a handful. Why, then, 3 months later could he barely bowl in a test, form he continued into the ODIs?

18 months ago Bairstow smashed Steyn and Morkel around at Lords. Now it doesn't look like he knows which way to hold a bat.

Compton scored two centuries in NZ but three months later looked so scared and confused, one wonders if he could ever score an international run ever again.

Joe Root breezed into international cricket, scoring runs for fun. Now he's probably a better bowler than batsman.

Finn, God knows...

We've also broken Swann and are at the point of breaking Anderson.

Something is rotten at the heart of Team ECB, and its only going to stink some more. They may have thought that by sacking KP, they've excised the cancer, but as the debacle in the Windies is showing its debatable if that was really the problem.
That bit makes no sense. Between them they have over 15 years of test match cricket behind them and both have spent long periods in the top 10 bowlers in the world.
__________________
ENGLAND; Ashes holders, World Champions and the Number One cricket team in World Cricket.
beefy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2014, 08:13   #33
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Perhaps, but the batting and bowling coaches are/were employed under Flower's auspices. We also know that the data-driven approach to coaching, which has had its successes, was implemented by Flower and has spread to all disciplines.

And SVaZ, I agree, Flower was a great success- a success at taking a mature side and steering it through its peak years. However, I have seen little evidence over the same period that he is particularly qualified to work, as the ECB puts it:
I didn't have time to fully respond yesterday and I do agree re your mentioning of data-driven methodology. However there are a number of players that I think you are wrong to say were 'broken' that there were other factors that have led to the current situation apart from injury prone Tremlett.

Kieswetter, Dernbach, Compton. In my opinion these guys are short of the quality required to be a consistent success at international level. Perhaps the Somerset factor has held them back mentally in the case of a couple of them but that can never be ascertained precisely.

Panesar, the seeds to his performance as a bowler were planted in late 2007 when he started bowling medium pace darts in Sri Lanka (ok you may have been referring to his mental issues but there are technical issues as well).

Kerrigan, can you really blame Flower for him getting stage fright/the yips at the Oval? I would suggest some of his technical issues became exacerbated that day.

Trott, perhaps ground down after a long time on the road at international level.

Swann, see the above but I think his body was letting him down or more specifically his elbow and he was going to retire anyway, just that a shocking performance on tour brought it ahead by two matches. The other bowlers I'd already discussed as being 'Sakered'. Root and Bairstow are still definitely retrievable, but as I say I'm really disappointed that they've done nothing with Gooch and Saker as of yet. The ECB revolution hasn't started that promisingly for me at all.
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2014, 09:22   #34
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
I didn't have time to fully respond yesterday and I do agree re your mentioning of data-driven methodology. However there are a number of players that I think you are wrong to say were 'broken' that there were other factors that have led to the current situation apart from injury prone Tremlett.

Kieswetter, Dernbach, Compton. In my opinion these guys are short of the quality required to be a consistent success at international level. Perhaps the Somerset factor has held them back mentally in the case of a couple of them but that can never be ascertained precisely.

Panesar, the seeds to his performance as a bowler were planted in late 2007 when he started bowling medium pace darts in Sri Lanka (ok you may have been referring to his mental issues but there are technical issues as well).

Kerrigan, can you really blame Flower for him getting stage fright/the yips at the Oval? I would suggest some of his technical issues became exacerbated that day.

Trott, perhaps ground down after a long time on the road at international level.

Swann, see the above but I think his body was letting him down or more specifically his elbow and he was going to retire anyway, just that a shocking performance on tour brought it ahead by two matches. The other bowlers I'd already discussed as being 'Sakered'. Root and Bairstow are still definitely retrievable, but as I say I'm really disappointed that they've done nothing with Gooch and Saker as of yet. The ECB revolution hasn't started that promisingly for me at all.
Hehe, hadn't considered this factor- is it a 57.3% reduction in performance under pressure situations?

A couple of quick points
-if we do take a data-based overview, then the low number of newly integrated players since Flower and high number of failures is a telling statistic. Individual circumstances can be considered but, to me, there is a trend developing here.
-6 months ago I'd have agreed with you about Kerrigan. However, I'm starting to reconsider. Did he get the yips on debut or, as I'm beginning to suspect, was his action micro-analysed and tweaked by the coaches in the week leading up to the point he lost confidence in what he was trying to do? Its well known that coaching usually leads to an initial drop in performance as the new technique is honed by the individual.

I'm not against the use of data and stats, in fact I'm generally for it. But we have to realise that players are human and we can try as hard as we like to get them to do what the stats say they should, but its not always possible for them to do so. In which case, we have to move beyond the game plan, something Cook and co seem incapable of doing.

I'm beginning to wonder about the reasons KP was sacked. Its been mentioned he was working hard with the young players on the Ashes tour, its also known he refuses the help of the England batting coaches, using Ford instead as his mentor. Perhaps Team ECB simply didn't want the younger players being led "astray" and this led to the final confrontation in Melbourne that sealed his fate?
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2014, 09:36   #35
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Hehe, hadn't considered this factor- is it a 57.3% reduction in performance under pressure situations?

A couple of quick points
-if we do take a data-based overview, then the low number of newly integrated players since Flower and high number of failures is a telling statistic. Individual circumstances can be considered but, to me, there is a trend developing here.
-6 months ago I'd have agreed with you about Kerrigan. However, I'm starting to reconsider. Did he get the yips on debut or, as I'm beginning to suspect, was his action micro-analysed and tweaked by the coaches in the week leading up to the point he lost confidence in what he was trying to do? Its well known that coaching usually leads to an initial drop in performance as the new technique is honed by the individual.

I'm not against the use of data and stats, in fact I'm generally for it. But we have to realise that players are human and we can try as hard as we like to get them to do what the stats say they should, but its not always possible for them to do so. In which case, we have to move beyond the game plan, something Cook and co seem incapable of doing.

I'm beginning to wonder about the reasons KP was sacked. Its been mentioned he was working hard with the young players on the Ashes tour, its also known he refuses the help of the England batting coaches, using Ford instead as his mentor. Perhaps Team ECB simply didn't want the younger players being led "astray" and this led to the final confrontation in Melbourne that sealed his fate?
The Somerset factor wasn't that difficult to spot but I was trying to hide it in plain sight so to speak.

The Kerrigan/Pietersen points are too speculative for me, though to be fair most of the arguments re the latter are often fairly hilarious speculation, particularly on the Pietersen thread. I do take your point re the issue of integrating younger players but I think it is the actions of the next few months that are key. I do have my concerns and it needs a calmer influence than that of the current management set-up. I think Peter Moores getting the coaching job would be a catastrophe. He is good at getting the best out of modest players. I am far from convinced he has a clue how to manage up and coming players or anyone near top class.

Re the team talk post Melbourne and the issue of extra fitness sessions. Whoever thought that was a good idea should be summarily executed. I'm more than happy to carry that command out myself.
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2014, 11:39   #36
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,833
I admit I am being somewhat speculative, but I begin to worry there is too much micromanaging going on. Yes, even at international level players need to be coached, especially when they have obvious technical deficiencies. But too many players seem to come into the England set-up and perform not only badly but actually look like they are technically incompetent and mentally shot. The performances of Compton at Headingley, Kerrigan at the Oval and Rankin at the SCG should be an embarrassment to our coaching staff.

Compare this to say 5-10 years ago when we had the likes of Trescothick, Strauss, KP, Bell, Collingwood, Cook, Panesar, Swann who all came into the team and hit the ground running.

Maybe we just don't have the quality of that ilk in our reserves, but surely someone, somewhere since 2009 should have made a better case for inclusion.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2014, 08:46   #37
beefy
World Class
 
beefy's Avatar
Bulldog spirit
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London Town
Team(s): England & Arsenal
Posts: 7,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
I admit I am being somewhat speculative, but I begin to worry there is too much micromanaging going on. Yes, even at international level players need to be coached, especially when they have obvious technical deficiencies. But too many players seem to come into the England set-up and perform not only badly but actually look like they are technically incompetent and mentally shot. The performances of Compton at Headingley, Kerrigan at the Oval and Rankin at the SCG should be an embarrassment to our coaching staff.

Compare this to say 5-10 years ago when we had the likes of Trescothick, Strauss, KP, Bell, Collingwood, Cook, Panesar, Swann who all came into the team and hit the ground running.

Maybe we just don't have the quality of that ilk in our reserves, but surely someone, somewhere since 2009 should have made a better case for inclusion.
Much of those player played their best cricket under Flower.
__________________
ENGLAND; Ashes holders, World Champions and the Number One cricket team in World Cricket.
beefy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2014, 10:33   #38
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,833
As I said before, Beefy, very good at taking a relatively mature/experienced squad and making it perform to its maximum.

Different qualities needed to his new role, which is to bring forward the next generation of players and coaches. He has little successful track record of achieving this.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2014, 11:59   #39
JG_
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sheffield
Team(s): Yorkshire, England
Posts: 2,067
I think it is an odd move. Flower has had unprecedented control over England's player development work, with far more Lions matches than ever before and the EPP scheme too, but despite all this our players seem to be coming in to Test cricket less prepared than ever. Compared to the previous crop of Strauss, Cook, Trott, Prior etc, who all made an immediate impact in Test cricket, the recent players generally have far better county stats but only really Root and Stokes have looked at home in Test cricket, with the likes of Kerrigan, Taylor, Bairstow, Rankin not being introduced successfully. Flower and the ECB brought in this whole structure to try and bridge the gap between county and international cricket, but it hasn't worked. His player development record is poor to say the least.
JG_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2014, 13:29   #40
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG_ View Post
I think it is an odd move. Flower has had unprecedented control over England's player development work, with far more Lions matches than ever before and the EPP scheme too, but despite all this our players seem to be coming in to Test cricket less prepared than ever. Compared to the previous crop of Strauss, Cook, Trott, Prior etc, who all made an immediate impact in Test cricket, the recent players generally have far better county stats but only really Root and Stokes have looked at home in Test cricket, with the likes of Kerrigan, Taylor, Bairstow, Rankin not being introduced successfully. Flower and the ECB brought in this whole structure to try and bridge the gap between county and international cricket, but it hasn't worked. His player development record is poor to say the least.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:27.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Cricket247.org