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Old 4th January 2016, 14:10   #161
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Originally Posted by D/L View Post
It was some time after World Series cricket that the international boards became reconciled with the players who had taken part, so Botham benefitted rather more than one may think.
I can't think of many who failed to reappear against Botham as soon as possible afterwards. In fact, Ian Chappell returned after 4 years to strengthen Australia's 1979/80 batting because he'd played WSC.
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Old 4th January 2016, 14:45   #162
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Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
A better comparison at this stage of Stokes' career might be Jessop.
He didn't bowl much though, did he?
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Old 4th January 2016, 14:59   #163
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He didn't bowl much though, did he?
7000 f-c overs - not a huge workload for a 20 year career spanning the Edwardian era, and he wasn't used much during his Tests. I made the comparison because, like Stokes, he was a quick who probably wouldn't have nailed down a place on bowling alone but had the mercurial hitting ability to take the occasional game way from the oppo.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:27   #164
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Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
I can't think of many who failed to reappear against Botham as soon as possible afterwards. In fact, Ian Chappell returned after 4 years to strengthen Australia's 1979/80 batting because he'd played WSC.
Without doing the research, I recall that at the time, many cricket boards seemed to bear a grudge against the players who had taken Packer's dollars and didn't select them again for quite a while or not at all.

Of course, Botham wasn't the only player whose figures benefitted from this absence of the world's best players from test cricket for a substantial amount of time, but his are often quoted when comparisons are made between all-rounders.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:36   #165
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Without doing the research, I recall that at the time, many cricket boards seemed to bear a grudge against the players who had taken Packer's dollars and didn't select them again for quite a while or not at all.
I've been through the list of WSC players and there are none whose post-settlement absence would have affected Botham during his early flush of success. After the resolution in Spring 1979, England hosted India (who had no WSC players) and then went Down Under for the 'reconciliation season' when Australia used 10 WSC players. After the one off Jubilee Test in India, England had back to back series against a full strength West Indian side, during which time, Botham's early powers had gone.
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Old 5th January 2016, 11:01   #166
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Found something on the subject...

"By the time of the truce, Botham had played seventeen tests, eleven of them against seriously below-strength Australia and Pakistan teams and the other six against a New Zealand side of only modest ability. It was a wonderful way to be eased into test cricket and Botham took full advantage.

Greig himself believed that Botham's career might have been very different had it not been for Packer's World Series Cricket. "But for World Series, I would have played on and Botham would have taken more of a bowling all-rounder's position in the England team", he said."


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ket%22&f=false
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Old 5th January 2016, 11:19   #167
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Found something on the subject...

"By the time of the truce, Botham had played seventeen tests, eleven of them against seriously below-strength Australia and Pakistan teams and the other six against a New Zealand side of only modest ability. It was a wonderful way to be eased into test cricket and Botham took full advantage.

Greig himself believed that Botham's career might have been very different had it not been for Packer's World Series Cricket. "But for World Series, I would have played on and Botham would have taken more of a bowling all-rounder's position in the England team", he said."


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ket%22&f=false

Not quite sure I understand Greig's comment. Botham was always a bowling allrounder during those early years, delivering more overs than any England bowler. he often batted at 7 during his early period. I guess he'd have batted further down the order with no WSC, but that would have been more down to Knott staying at 7, rather than having Taylor at 8 or 9.
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Old 5th January 2016, 11:30   #168
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Yes, have to say, that flummoxed me a little too.
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Old 6th January 2016, 17:56   #169
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Ben Stokes tries almost everything as a bowler. Such bowlers can always go for runs. However, they will bowl that odd match-turning spell. He can develop into a good enough batsman who bowls that odd game-changing spell.
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Old 7th January 2016, 14:51   #170
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In fairness to Stokes' bowling, as has probably been pointed out many times, he always gets a rotten job: third change, never with the new ball, not renowned for reverse swing, usually up against set batsmen, sometimes unclear whether he's supposed to get wickets or keep an end dry...

We've seen flashes of brilliance: the two in two at Lord's and his 6-fer. And I'm not saying if he replaced Broad or Anderson or was even just the third seamer he'd do better than those guys - of course not - but you have to bear in mind that he has a tough job.
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Old 7th January 2016, 15:25   #171
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Botham was a truly great bowler (pre injury) and the player of the occasional great innings.
Stokes is a No.6 batsman and exceptional 4th seamer - much in the mould of how Flintoff initially viewed himself. Like Kallis his bowling figures will suffer because on helpful wickets/new ball/team on top the frontline bowlers will be reaping the glory. The nature of a batting allrounder (with the ball) is the support role.
Statistics do not tell the full worth of a player, especially a game changer like Stokes (potentially) is.

Last edited by oldandfat : 7th January 2016 at 15:52. Reason: clarify by adding (with the ball)
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Old 7th January 2016, 15:31   #172
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Feel like it's also worth mentioning that I'm the only cricket fan in my circle and people know I can talk about it until the cows come home, but the only times people have ever actually asked for my opinion about cricket were Broad's 8-15 and Stokes' innings the other day. I watched the latter with my little brother and he was genuinely enthused about getting some pads on and trying to hit my slow slow offspinners that don't spin for four.. Got to be worth something
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Old 7th January 2016, 16:41   #173
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Originally Posted by blackeyedangles View Post
Feel like it's also worth mentioning that I'm the only cricket fan in my circle and people know I can talk about it until the cows come home, but the only times people have ever actually asked for my opinion about cricket were Broad's 8-15 and Stokes' innings the other day. I watched the latter with my little brother and he was genuinely enthused about getting some pads on and trying to hit my slow slow offspinners that don't spin for four.. Got to be worth something
Just like my bowling but a notch faster, by the sound of it.
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Old 7th January 2016, 17:33   #174
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Originally Posted by blackeyedangles View Post
Feel like it's also worth mentioning that I'm the only cricket fan in my circle and people know I can talk about it until the cows come home, but the only times people have ever actually asked for my opinion about cricket were Broad's 8-15 and Stokes' innings the other day. I watched the latter with my little brother and he was genuinely enthused about getting some pads on and trying to hit my slow slow offspinners that don't spin for four.. Got to be worth something

I had a lot of that during the 2005 Ashes - colleagues with no discernible previous interest in the game suddenly appeared by my desk to talk about the state of the Test. Once I began explaining Simon Jones' ability to reverse swing, their eyes would glaze over and they'd scamper off rapidly.
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Old 7th January 2016, 19:46   #175
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Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
I had a lot of that during the 2005 Ashes - colleagues with no discernible previous interest in the game suddenly appeared by my desk to talk about the state of the Test. Once I began explaining Simon Jones' ability to reverse swing, their eyes would glaze over and they'd scamper off rapidly.
Admittedly this is what always happens to me as well, but it's better than nothing!
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Old 7th January 2016, 20:10   #176
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Admittedly this is what always happens to me as well, but it's better than nothing!
I wasn't especially excited by the explosion of interest around me because I'd seen it all before in '81 - folks wanting a piece of something that had suddenly become fashionable and successful, highly unlikely to maintain that interest once it was all over. But it did mean I had greater dispensation than normal to follow the game rather than doing any work !
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Old 7th January 2016, 22:33   #177
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Originally Posted by cabinboy View Post
Kallis top score 224

Stokes 258
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Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Stokes best bowling 6/36
Kallis 6/54
That's pretty conclusive between the two of you.

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Comparing Kallis to Stokes this early, or in fact at any time of his career is quite simply ridiculous

Indeed. Kallis is streets behind as the two posts above amply demonstrate. Other than that Yorker he missed; I certainly won't be talking fondly of any Kallis innings in 5 decades/years/minutes' time.

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The true comparison will come when Stokes decides its time for the hair transplant.

Kallis' rug was a thing of beauty, but for Stokes only time will tell.

Batting, bowling and the overcoming of personal follicle challenges. The three disciplines of any all rounder.
Stokes is definitely balding. He's a worthy successor to Goochie and, we, Greg Matthews. The only question is if they can come up with a suitable ginger dye.

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A better comparison at this stage of Stokes' career might be Jessop.
You really need to join us when Fatslogger gets round to repaying his gambling debts. And I'm not just saying that as the alternative is listening to Chin bang on about his glory days as a Tim Munton-style quick.

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Feel like it's also worth mentioning that I'm the only cricket fan in my circle and people know I can talk about it until the cows come home, but the only times people have ever actually asked for my opinion about cricket were Broad's 8-15 and Stokes' innings the other day. I watched the latter with my little brother and he was genuinely enthused about getting some pads on and trying to hit my slow slow offspinners that don't spin for four.. Got to be worth something
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Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
I had a lot of that during the 2005 Ashes - colleagues with no discernible previous interest in the game suddenly appeared by my desk to talk about the state of the Test. Once I began explaining Simon Jones' ability to reverse swing, their eyes would glaze over and they'd scamper off rapidly.
So it's you to blame for the lack of legacy, not it going to Sky!
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 7th January 2016, 22:34   #178
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I'm embarrassed for auto-correct there.

It made sense when I typed it.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 7th January 2016, 23:33   #179
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Were you in CT to witness Stokes' heroics at first hand Grannie?
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Old 7th January 2016, 23:44   #180
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Were you in CT to witness Stokes' heroics at first hand Grannie?
Yes, saw every ball.

God knows how they decided what bits to omit when compiling the highlights package. Was up there with Vaughan in 02/03and Pietersen v Murali at Edgbaston and in Colombo. And it wasn't half needed either.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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