Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > International Cricket
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 4th September 2018, 23:52   #121
Fatslogger
Self Confessed Mentalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hitchin
Team(s): England and Liverpool
Age: 42
Posts: 43,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
Disappointed you decided to come clean! The best thing is playing him at his own game when the guy had such stat flaws that you can mine.
SVaZ already knew what was going on and gbg is too much of an old pro to have been lured into a stats based debate about Kallis.
__________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes - Wilde
Fatslogger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2018, 15:32   #122
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,758
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
And I could probably name a dozen England players* who've averaged over 40 in that same time period but, until this generation, fewer English quality all-rounders than SA.



*I would only describe a few of them as world class. I should also have included Graeme Pollock in my list of SA world class batsmen - apologies for that oversight.
South Africa's tend to work on their second string more than English players. A lot of England batsmen have been passable bowlers prior to be called up. You couldn't imagine a South African bowler suffering the decline in batting Broad has.
JRC67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2018, 20:47   #123
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
South Africa's tend to work on their second string more than English players. A lot of England batsmen have been passable bowlers prior to be called up. You couldn't imagine a South African bowler suffering the decline in batting Broad has.
Maybe but Broad might be something of an outlier in that the ball to the face has given him the batting equivalent of the yips.

I wonder if having had Botham set such a high bar for the next generation of all rounders that it stifled the development of many who followed him? To be the next Botham you really did have to be a match winning batsman and a match winning bowler, plus a huge personality to boot. South African all rounders have tended to be match winners in one discipline only and a role player in the other, Jaques who shall not be named included.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2018, 23:34   #124
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
... South African all rounders have tended to be match winners in one discipline only and a role player in the other, Jaques who shall not be named included.
The current trend in the English test game seems to be the opposite. Although there is an unusually large number of fine all-rounders at present, very few of them are easily movable from the middle or lower-middle order -- i.e., if they're better at bowling they wouldn't necessarily hold down a specialist bowling place, and if they're better at batting they wouldn't necessarily hold down a specialist batting place except at 5 or 6. And that goes for the wicket-keeping all-rounders too. None of the following have established themselves as a top four batsman or as reliably one of the four best bowlers, despite the fact that several of them have played quite a lot of tests already: Buttler, Bairstow, Stokes, Woakes, Curran, Moeen. Yet all 6 of these chaps are currently undroppable for the Oval, unless injured. If there are some batting/bowling all-rounders at no. 7 and above then it's possible to accommodate some of the other bowling/batting all-rounders at 8 and/or 9 even if they wouldn't be pickable in a four-man attack; but in the short or medium-term we need some of these chaps to step up in one discipline in particular. At present that lack of focused development is stunting our ability to develop new specialists in the batting in particular: Pope has been jettisoned after 3 innings simply because as a massively talented but inexperienced test batsman he needs to be bedded in at 6, but because the middle-order slots are all taken by immovable undroppables, it can't be done. And perhaps this already happened to Vince, Ballance, Westley, etc., any of whom might have made the grade had they been picked at 6 and then either dropped from there or moved up if necessary and appropriate. In the short term England will no doubt fudge it this winter, as they have done in other recent tours to the subcontinent and the UAE, by having millions of (mostly ineffective) bowlers in the team and by batting people in the top four who they don't expect to do the job long term; but really that's no solution.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2018, 00:56   #125
luckyluke
Established International
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
The current trend in the English test game seems to be the opposite. Although there is an unusually large number of fine all-rounders at present, very few of them are easily movable from the middle or lower-middle order -- i.e., if they're better at bowling they wouldn't necessarily hold down a specialist bowling place, and if they're better at batting they wouldn't necessarily hold down a specialist batting place except at 5 or 6. And that goes for the wicket-keeping all-rounders too. None of the following have established themselves as a top four batsman or as reliably one of the four best bowlers, despite the fact that several of them have played quite a lot of tests already: Buttler, Bairstow, Stokes, Woakes, Curran, Moeen. Yet all 6 of these chaps are currently undroppable for the Oval, unless injured. If there are some batting/bowling all-rounders at no. 7 and above then it's possible to accommodate some of the other bowling/batting all-rounders at 8 and/or 9 even if they wouldn't be pickable in a four-man attack; but in the short or medium-term we need some of these chaps to step up in one discipline in particular. At present that lack of focused development is stunting our ability to develop new specialists in the batting in particular: Pope has been jettisoned after 3 innings simply because as a massively talented but inexperienced test batsman he needs to be bedded in at 6, but because the middle-order slots are all taken by immovable undroppables, it can't be done. And perhaps this already happened to Vince, Ballance, Westley, etc., any of whom might have made the grade had they been picked at 6 and then either dropped from there or moved up if necessary and appropriate. In the short term England will no doubt fudge it this winter, as they have done in other recent tours to the subcontinent and the UAE, by having millions of (mostly ineffective) bowlers in the team and by batting people in the top four who they don't expect to do the job long term; but really that's no solution.
Agreed.

Oh for the 2011 team where the batters did the batting and the bowlers did the bowling.
__________________
Most heartless decision:

In a women's league match in Denmark, a heavily pregnant woman arrived at the crease, and asked for a runner. Her request was denied, on the grounds that her incapacity had not occured during the course of the match.
luckyluke is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2018, 01:08   #126
Michelle Fivefer
Posting Goddess
 
Michelle Fivefer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: North West England
Team(s): England, Lancashire
Posts: 42,521
Seconded.
__________________
As balanced and focused as the next man
Michelle Fivefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2018, 09:17   #127
Fatslogger
Self Confessed Mentalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hitchin
Team(s): England and Liverpool
Age: 42
Posts: 43,699
True and we did once pick new batsmen at 6 to induct them. The 2011 side was chock full of batsmen who debuted in the top 5, did well and stayed in the team though. Pietersen had moved up a notch from 5 to 4 and Bell down, of course.
__________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes - Wilde
Fatslogger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2018, 12:28   #128
D/L
Legendary
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Yorkshire CCC & England, Wakefield Trinity RLFC, Leeds Carnegie RUFC
Posts: 9,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Maybe but Broad might be something of an outlier in that the ball to the face has given him the batting equivalent of the yips. ...
They, or something akin to them, appeared well before that incident.

There was a point, very early in his test career, when it seemed Broad had the potential to be a genuine all-rounder. Unfortunately, despite the selectors' unusual persistence with him, it never materialised.
D/L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2018, 12:34   #129
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by D/L View Post
They, or something akin to them, appeared well before that incident.

There was a point, very early in his test career, when it seemed Broad had the potential to be a genuine all-rounder. Unfortunately, despite the selectors' unusual persistence with him, it never materialised.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...f-england-2010

Every dog has his day ... And oh-oh-oh, what a day that was.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2018, 13:00   #130
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...f-england-2010

Every dog has his day ... And oh-oh-oh, what a day that was.
I think Broad was being considered a possible all rounder even before then, with some speculation he'd be promoted to 7 for the South Africa tour the previous winter. Some might say it was fortunate, for both him and England, that he prioritised his bowling
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2018, 13:20   #131
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 10,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
I think Broad was being considered a possible all rounder even before then, with some speculation he'd be promoted to 7 for the South Africa tour the previous winter. Some might say it was fortunate, for both him and England, that he prioritised his bowling
I always thought it was optimistic to think of Broad becoming a number 7. The case for not promoting him to 7 was supported by the fact that it was mainly Jonathan Agnew who was suggesting it. He's still a dangerous number 9 or 10 as if he doesn't get out early he can score quickly as he has a decent variety of attacking shots.
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2018, 14:01   #132
D/L
Legendary
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Yorkshire CCC & England, Wakefield Trinity RLFC, Leeds Carnegie RUFC
Posts: 9,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...f-england-2010

Every dog has his day ... And oh-oh-oh, what a day that was.
Given everything else that happened in that match, I'm surprised it still features in the record books.
D/L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2018, 14:52   #133
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 28,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
The current trend in the English test game seems to be the opposite. Although there is an unusually large number of fine all-rounders at present, very few of them are easily movable from the middle or lower-middle order -- i.e., if they're better at bowling they wouldn't necessarily hold down a specialist bowling place, and if they're better at batting they wouldn't necessarily hold down a specialist batting place except at 5 or 6. And that goes for the wicket-keeping all-rounders too. None of the following have established themselves as a top four batsman or as reliably one of the four best bowlers, despite the fact that several of them have played quite a lot of tests already: Buttler, Bairstow, Stokes, Woakes, Curran, Moeen. Yet all 6 of these chaps are currently undroppable for the Oval, unless injured. If there are some batting/bowling all-rounders at no. 7 and above then it's possible to accommodate some of the other bowling/batting all-rounders at 8 and/or 9 even if they wouldn't be pickable in a four-man attack; but in the short or medium-term we need some of these chaps to step up in one discipline in particular. At present that lack of focused development is stunting our ability to develop new specialists in the batting in particular: Pope has been jettisoned after 3 innings simply because as a massively talented but inexperienced test batsman he needs to be bedded in at 6, but because the middle-order slots are all taken by immovable undroppables, it can't be done. And perhaps this already happened to Vince, Ballance, Westley, etc., any of whom might have made the grade had they been picked at 6 and then either dropped from there or moved up if necessary and appropriate. In the short term England will no doubt fudge it this winter, as they have done in other recent tours to the subcontinent and the UAE, by having millions of (mostly ineffective) bowlers in the team and by batting people in the top four who they don't expect to do the job long term; but really that's no solution.
If only we'd had the benefit of this wisdom when discussing Ian Ronald Bell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...f-england-2010

Every dog has his day ... And oh-oh-oh, what a day that was.
*Day and a bit - as he was so successful.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
geoff_boycotts_grandmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 21:58.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Cricket247.org