Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > England
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 17th March 2018, 18:21   #941
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
Very mean-spirited and unfair on Embers - and your statistics do lie because they are a total fabrication.

Embers averaged 38 runs per wkt in Tests not the 83 you preposterously claim.

My fondest memory of him was during Botham's Ashes in 1981, when he turned the game at Edgbaston. At 90 odd for three, Australia only wanted 60 for victory with Border and Yallop seemingly coasting to a win that would have put the Aussies 2-1 up.

Embers then removed both established batsmen, enabling Botham to clean up the tail in taking 5-11.

That said, I was never his biggest fan. I much prefered the more mercurial Edmonds, who had a better average, economy rate and strike rate in Test cricket.

Embers was also rather a dour man while Henri was - and still is - a wonderful character.

.
Not sure it was a lie he just typed the numbers the wrong way around.

Part of the reason for the difference in averages was JE played pretty much every test for a period while PE played as the second spinner when the conditions were more in his favour.
JRC67 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2018, 18:36   #942
gmdf
County Pro
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
You werenít a fan then? But donít exaggerate quite how bad he was!


Ah, my ham fisted typing let me down here - apologies Mr Emburey - 38, not 83.
gmdf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2018, 20:21   #943
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmdf View Post
... During their careers Embers et al were the best we had. ...
If so, then I'd say picking them was the right thing to do.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2018, 20:52   #944
WeAreKent
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
Not sure it was a lie he just typed the numbers the wrong way around.
I was refering to the irony that the poster in question lectured us that "statistics never lie", but his did because his statistics were totally untrue!
WeAreKent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2018, 21:08   #945
gmdf
County Pro
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
If so, then I'd say picking them was the right thing to do.

Absolutely. But my point is that top class Test spinners seem to come along (for us) only once a generation or so. The rest of the time we have to work round the best we have, Emburey, Miller, Giles or whoever.
gmdf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2018, 21:55   #946
Summer of '77
Legendary
 
Summer of '77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London-Essex
Team(s): Kent, Essex, Surrey Stars
Posts: 8,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmdf View Post
Absolutely. But my point is that top class Test spinners seem to come along (for us) only once a generation or so. The rest of the time we have to work round the best we have, Emburey, Miller, Giles or whoever.
Not just England. Australia didn't possess an enduring quality spinner between Benaud (retired 1964) and Warne (debut 1992). West Indies haven't had a top class twirler since Lance Gibbs, who is in his 84th year. For South Africa, Maharaj looks like he might have something about him but, arguably, they've produced no star spinner since Hugh Tayfield, whose career ended at the very start of the 1960s.
Summer of '77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2018, 22:15   #947
WeAreKent
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
Not just England. Australia didn't possess an enduring quality spinner between Benaud (retired 1964) and Warne (debut 1992). West Indies haven't had a top class twirler since Lance Gibbs, who is in his 84th year. For South Africa, Maharaj looks like he might have something about him but, arguably, they've produced no star spinner since Hugh Tayfield, whose career ended at the very start of the 1960s.
This is true. Every few years we get the periodic 'why are there no spinners in English cricket, it must be the state of the pitches' panic. But it seems that good spinners have been like gold dust for the last 50-60 years not only in England but everywhere outside the sub-continent.

The way white ball cricket has brought spinners back into the game (even though you no longer actually need to turn the ball to be successful!),we are now arguably in the best era for the twirlers since covered pitches were introduced.

Twirly men and fast men - we need more of both. It's the medium pacers who just put the ball on a length and let English conditions do the rest that are the bane of English cricket. Some of them, like the 42 year-old Darren Stevens do it with an admirable, almost metronomic, skill. But it's boring as hell and I hate it when bowlers like that get given the new ball in county cricket over quicker bowlers.
WeAreKent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2018, 08:34   #948
gmdf
County Pro
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
Not just England. Australia didn't possess an enduring quality spinner between Benaud (retired 1964) and Warne (debut 1992). West Indies haven't had a top class twirler since Lance Gibbs, who is in his 84th year. For South Africa, Maharaj looks like he might have something about him but, arguably, they've produced no star spinner since Hugh Tayfield, whose career ended at the very start of the 1960s.
Very true. It goes to show just how difficult being a top class spinner is - and many of those who do emerge do well for a while (think Nick Cook, or Paul Adams in SA) then get "found out" or simply fade away.

Maybe India, due to their pitches, has been more successful in producing them over the years, but is that still the cse?

NB The recent changes to the CC in England, marginalising the 4 day game mostly to the bookends of the season, doesn't look as if it will help develop spinners, does it...
gmdf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2018, 19:04   #949
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 27,887
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
I think it will be a little sooner as there are 4 or 5 promising candidates
I expect people were saying the same about Mason Crane last year and before that Kerrigan, Riley (or whatever the name was of that K*nt spinner) etc etc

As Jack Leach will demonstrate if he is picked heíll have been a better spinner out of the team than he will be in the team.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
geoff_boycotts_grandmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2018, 19:43   #950
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
I expect people were saying the same about Mason Crane last year and before that Kerrigan, Riley (or whatever the name was of that K*nt spinner) etc etc

As Jack Leach will demonstrate if he is picked heíll have been a better spinner out of the team than he will be in the team.
I'd say it is certain some people were saying the same about Crane. There is a little difference now with counties realising the importance of spin on what are pretty flat surface they prepare for limited overs cricket. The question is whether they can transfer those skills to the longer form.

I'm sceptical rather than cynical about Leach. I saw him bowl in Dubai at the start of last season and was in Bribane for work in November and saw a day of The Lions vs Queensland. He wasn't that good in either match, against Queenland he was treated with contempt and probably went for about 6 or 7 an over without looking like taking wickets. There was an Asian off spinner who looked pretty useful.
JRC67 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2018, 20:21   #951
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
... As Jack Leach will demonstrate if he is picked heíll have been a better spinner out of the team than he will be in the team.
You say that kind of thing every about every up-and-coming spinner we have at about this stage of his career. Usually you're right, but sometimes you're massively wrong. In any case, you think all spinners are rubbish whether they're in the team or not.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2018, 18:55   #952
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
Twirly men and fast men - we need more of both. It's the medium pacers who just put the ball on a length and let English conditions do the rest that are the bane of English cricket. Some of them, like the 42 year-old Darren Stevens do it with an admirable, almost metronomic, skill. But it's boring as hell and I hate it when bowlers like that get given the new ball in county cricket over quicker bowlers.
It is easy to belittle the skill of bowling on an English wicket but it's not as easy as just putting the ball in the right place. At Trent Bridge you'd back Anderson over most bowlers. Winning away in test cricket is becoming increasingly difficult because teams don't play many warm up games to acclimate and all teams are guilty of making sure wickets suit home bowlers. Among other factors this is also part of the reason tests normally last 4 days. I think Australia have only won one series in India over the last 20 years and they had the benefit of arguably the best spinner ever for much of that time. Overall it's the way it should be because fans really turn up to watch their team win and teams which do win a difficult away series stand out as being a little special.
JRC67 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2018, 21:51   #953
WeAreKent
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
It is easy to belittle the skill of bowling on an English wicket but it's not as easy as just putting the ball in the right place.
Sadly on green seaming wickets it is, especially with a shiny red ball. You put it on a good line and length and watch it 'nibble'.

Ask Stevo. It got him 62 CC wkts at 18 last season. You cannot honestly say "it's the way it should be" or that it does anything to prepare English bowlers or batters for the tougher rigours of international cricket on good pitches.
WeAreKent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2018, 23:38   #954
Summer of '77
Legendary
 
Summer of '77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London-Essex
Team(s): Kent, Essex, Surrey Stars
Posts: 8,661
See, I don't mind a handful of games per season being played on nibbly seaming surfaces. But, I also want a good number of fast true tracks and some bunsens too. A disappointing feature of English cricket in recent years is that that we rarely experience a broad variety of pitches during a season, testing and developing the entire range of cricketing skills.
Summer of '77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2018, 17:17   #955
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
Sadly on green seaming wickets it is, especially with a shiny red ball. You put it on a good line and length and watch it 'nibble'.

Ask Stevo. It got him 62 CC wkts at 18 last season. You cannot honestly say "it's the way it should be" or that it does anything to prepare English bowlers or batters for the tougher rigours of international cricket on good pitches.
The fact every bowler didn't take 60 wickets says there is skill in what he does. From bitter experience getting the release from the hand, shoulder and arm positions right ball after ball isn't easy, particularly if you try and swing the ball both ways.

When I said the way it should be I was referring to test matches. What makes great test players is there ability to perform in a range of conditions. English pitches are a function of soil and weather. Groundsman have a impact and the age of a pitch, although most pitches now get relaid and don't break up like they did 40 years, which hasn't really helped spin bowling. If you go to any test country the grounds suit there bowlers because the bowlers produced are a product of their pitches and conditions. I don't see a problem that the home side has a big advantage as going away should be testing. Poor players fail at test level, reasonable players do well at home, good players in some away conditions and greats in all conditions.
JRC67 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2018, 18:35   #956
WeAreKent
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
The fact every bowler didn't take 60 wickets says there is skill in what he does. From bitter experience getting the release from the hand, shoulder and arm positions right ball after ball isn't easy,
Which is why I wrote "Some of them, like the 42 year-old Darren Stevens, do it with an admirable, almost metronomic, skill." But perhaps you were speed reading and missed that bit!
WeAreKent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2018, 19:04   #957
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
Which is why I wrote "Some of them, like the 42 year-old Darren Stevens, do it with an admirable, almost metronomic, skill." But perhaps you were speed reading and missed that bit!
I wouldn't say he was metronomic as he moves it both ways, which does require a change in action, but still getting the release right. Hes not express pace but he does more than just bowl the same ball 6 times an over. I guess he's metronomic in terms that as he's got older he bowls few deliveries on the wrong line and length. Arguably the best seamer in overseas conditions bowls at county trundler pace but Phillander gets his lines and variations right for conditions. I can't think of a successful county medium pacer with only a single stock delivery and that's it, although I'm sure there have been a few.
JRC67 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2018, 20:52   #958
WeAreKent
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 838
His stock delivery is an in-swinger but he does also have a leg-cutter in the right conditions, although he doesn't seem able to bowl it with the white ball. In fact he's completely ineffective without a red ball in his hands and pretty much gets milked - which is the clue that it's all about the conditions and the ball, although as said he exploits them skilfully.

I remember when he took somthing like 6-20 against Surrey in the CC a few yearas ago and his own captain Rob Key lambasted the pitch and said - and I quote - "all due respect to Stevo but he is not the kind of bowler who should be taking 6-20."

I'd have to say he's not in the same class as the great medium-pacers I grew up watching on uncovered pitches in the 1960s such as Tom Cartwright, Derek Shackleton, Don Shepherd and the very under-rated Tony Nicholson.
WeAreKent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2018, 22:58   #959
Summer of '77
Legendary
 
Summer of '77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London-Essex
Team(s): Kent, Essex, Surrey Stars
Posts: 8,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreKent View Post
I'd have to say he's not in the same class as the great medium-pacers I grew up watching on uncovered pitches in the 1960s such as Tom Cartwright, Derek Shackleton, Don Shepherd and the very under-rated Tony Nicholson.
Given the fact that Stevo has put together a highly impressive set of returns in recent seasons on covered pitches, do you think that the modern batsman is more vulnerable against medium pace nibbly stuff than those who faced Shack, Nick, etc? I suppose we have to factor in his opponents being primarily Div Two batsmen, but I do suspect that the contemporary batter goes harder, more often at the ball.

What is amazing is that he barely bowled a ball in his early years at Leics, was picked up by Kent to bolster their middle order and turned into one of the circuit's more consistently effective bowlers. Moral: never dismiss a cricketer's potential to develop and improve!
Summer of '77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2018, 11:30   #960
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
Given the fact that Stevo has put together a highly impressive set of returns in recent seasons on covered pitches, do you think that the modern batsman is more vulnerable against medium pace nibbly stuff than those who faced Shack, Nick, etc? I suppose we have to factor in his opponents being primarily Div Two batsmen, but I do suspect that the contemporary batter goes harder, more often at the ball.

What is amazing is that he barely bowled a ball in his early years at Leics, was picked up by Kent to bolster their middle order and turned into one of the circuit's more consistently effective bowlers. Moral: never dismiss a cricketer's potential to develop and improve!
Medium pace bowlers have by and large been replaced by medium fast so he has become a bit of a novelty. I guess he shows what someone can do if they really work at their game.
JRC67 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 20:49.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Cricket247.org