Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > England
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 17th May 2018, 07:02   #4901
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 24,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Is it not more important that he'd be a better batsman and a better keeper than the incumbent?

I've not really seen Foakes play but Bairstow has developed into a good test keeper and I would be surprised if Foakes was better than him.
I have seen Foakes play a fair bit and in my opinion he is a superior keeper. Not massively so but more of a craftsman who has very fine natural glovework.

Good batsman but not as good as Bairstow.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 09:21   #4902
square leg umpire
Legendary
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: yorkshire
Team(s): yorkshire
Posts: 8,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Is it not more important that he'd be a better batsman and a better keeper than the incumbent?

I've not really seen Foakes play but Bairstow has developed into a good test keeper and I would be surprised if Foakes was better than him.
The point is freeing Bairstow to bat 5 or 6. If Bairstow has to bat 5 he's going to find keeping a strain.
square leg umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 09:38   #4903
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by square leg umpire View Post
The point is freeing Bairstow to bat 5 or 6. If Bairstow has to bat 5 he's going to find keeping a strain.
He seemed to manage it OK in India, which you'd think would be a good test. Anyhow with Buttler now in the team there's the option for him to take over keeping duties for particular sessions or even full-time.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 12:29   #4904
Psyduck
Posting God
 
Psyduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Manchester
Team(s): England, Lancashire, Man Utd
Posts: 16,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by square leg umpire View Post
The point is freeing Bairstow to bat 5 or 6. If Bairstow has to bat 5 he's going to find keeping a strain.
If Bairstow bats for a long time in England's first innings or the opposition bat for a long time in their first innings I would hope England are flexible enough to give Jos the gloves and let YJB take a breather for a session.
Psyduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 12:57   #4905
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyduck View Post
If Bairstow bats for a long time in England's first innings or the opposition bat for a long time in their first innings I would hope England are flexible enough to give Jos the gloves and let YJB take a breather for a session.
How many professional sides regularly switch keepers during games? I imagine it has a few ramifications for the captain, bowlers and practice.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 13:23   #4906
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
Maybe that's why they don't pick Hildreth. Playing too long in any other non-test format might be expected to have a similar effect. Does this amount to an argument for picking test players younger and developing them in the test arena? That's what they did with Broad I suppose. But the earlier the door closes, the smaller the pool is to choose from, and it also means that a lot of investment is lost if someone doesn't develop as hoped and has to be dropped.
Perhaps yes. The list of test batsmen to debut since Buttler, posted by 1000ys elsewhere, is something of a sorry one. Most of those batsmen were selected after a prolonged period of success in div1 county cricket, yet were brutally exposed by international bowlers (and often not always by very good attacks). Of course, one expects a big step up, but it seems to be an insurmountable one for those currently playing county cricket. Would the likes of Burns, Gubbins, Foakes or Clarke likely be more successful? I can't say, as I haven't seen them play enough or at all, but I don't feel any case can be made simply because they have among the highest batting averages around in county cricket.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 13:43   #4907
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 28,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Perhaps yes. The list of test batsmen to debut since Buttler, posted by 1000ys elsewhere, is something of a sorry one. Most of those batsmen were selected after a prolonged period of success in div1 county cricket, yet were brutally exposed by international bowlers (and often not always by very good attacks). Of course, one expects a big step up, but it seems to be an insurmountable one for those currently playing county cricket. Would the likes of Burns, Gubbins, Foakes or Clarke likely be more successful? I can't say, as I haven't seen them play enough or at all, but I don't feel any case can be made simply because they have among the highest batting averages around in county cricket.
Not so sure about that.

I think Hales might be the only one who had averaged 40+ in division 1 in both the two preceding seasons.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
geoff_boycotts_grandmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 13:57   #4908
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Not so sure about that.

I think Hales might be the only one who had averaged 40+ in division 1 in both the two preceding seasons.
By prolonged I meant one season! Some players names get dropped into the game after a couple of half decent scores.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 14:09   #4909
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Perhaps yes. The list of test batsmen to debut since Buttler, posted by 1000ys elsewhere, is something of a sorry one. Most of those batsmen were selected after a prolonged period of success in div1 county cricket, yet were brutally exposed by international bowlers (and often not always by very good attacks). Of course, one expects a big step up, but it seems to be an insurmountable one for those currently playing county cricket. Would the likes of Burns, Gubbins, Foakes or Clarke likely be more successful? I can't say, as I haven't seen them play enough or at all, but I don't feel any case can be made simply because they have among the highest batting averages around in county cricket.
What you spin as a weakness of county cricket could rather be seen as a virtue of test cricket. The fact remains that almost all the players realistically available for England selection are playing county cricket, and of those who aren't, some are already in the test team, and some aren't playing any cricket at all (because their IPL franchises don't pick them). So when it comes to replenishing the England team, county cricket is really the only place to choose from. The test team can't depend on picking players who don't play county cricket (Buttler is very much an exception and anyway may not make it as a test player), so if you think there's a problem then rather than just rubbishing county cricket perhaps some thought needs to be given to how it might become a better place for developing future test players. Presumably it doesn't help that during much of what used to be the championship season no championship cricket is played.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 14:24   #4910
Fred
County Pro
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 939
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
How many professional sides regularly switch keepers during games? I imagine it has a few ramifications for the captain, bowlers and practice.
Lancashire have switched between Davies and Vilas this season. Guest their second team keeper also bowled a bit in his first season.

I imagine Northants have done it a bit with Murphy, Rossington and Duckett, but I don't follow them.
Fred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 15:13   #4911
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred View Post
Lancashire have switched between Davies and Vilas this season. Guest their second team keeper also bowled a bit in his first season.

I imagine Northants have done it a bit with Murphy, Rossington and Duckett, but I don't follow them.
Have they swapped between Davies and Vilas during one game?
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 16:47   #4912
Psyduck
Posting God
 
Psyduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Manchester
Team(s): England, Lancashire, Man Utd
Posts: 16,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
How many professional sides regularly switch keepers during games? I imagine it has a few ramifications for the captain, bowlers and practice.
You're over thinking it.
Psyduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 17:25   #4913
Fred
County Pro
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 939
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Have they swapped between Davies and Vilas during one game?
Yes, in each of the last 3 games, including today's RL50 game.

Assisted by Lancs insisting on selecting Davies even when carrying an injury. Presumably they think his thumb will improve whilst batting. Or maybe without any runs from Chanderpaul or Hameed they don't feel they have any choice but to give the gloves to Davies and wait from him to be hit on the thumb again, then Vilas takes over.
Fred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 17:48   #4914
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyduck View Post
You're over thinking it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred View Post
Yes, in each of the last 3 games, including today's RL50 game.

Assisted by Lancs insisting on selecting Davies even when carrying an injury. Presumably they think his thumb will improve whilst batting. Or maybe without any runs from Chanderpaul or Hameed they don't feel they have any choice but to give the gloves to Davies and wait from him to be hit on the thumb again, then Vilas takes over.
Seems a bizarre choice, why not just play Davies as a batsman only until his thumb improves?

I still can't see England changing keeper midway through a game as a tactic, though. They've regularly played sides containing more than one keeper but seem reticent to take the gloves away from someone unless they are dropped from the side.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2018, 09:36   #4915
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
... I still can't see England changing keeper midway through a game as a tactic, though. They've regularly played sides containing more than one keeper but seem reticent to take the gloves away from someone unless they are dropped from the side.
Maybe it's not such a burden to keep. If I were a keeper I'd want to do it. You get the best view.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2018, 11:04   #4916
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 24,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
Maybe it's not such a burden to keep. If I were a keeper I'd want to do it. You get the best view.
Someone like Alec Stewart it clearly didn't help too much. He was a far, far better player without the gloves but then again he was an adapted keeper and not a regular keeper in the earlier part of his first class career.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2018, 11:25   #4917
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
Someone like Alec Stewart it clearly didn't help too much. He was a far, far better player without the gloves but then again he was an adapted keeper and not a regular keeper in the earlier part of his first class career.
With Stewart he established himself in the team as a top-order batsman first, and then there was the sense that taking up the keeping duties hampered his development. I suppose given that he was a top-order batsman it was fair enough for him not to bat at 7.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2018, 12:13   #4918
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 24,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
With Stewart he established himself in the team as a top-order batsman first, and then there was the sense that taking up the keeping duties hampered his development. I suppose given that he was a top-order batsman it was fair enough for him not to bat at 7.
I don't think 'development' was the issue, he was a genuine world class top order batsman without the gloves, he averages over 46 as a batsman alone. Yet with the gloves his average was around 34. Huge difference in the effect of performances. I think it is generally overlooked what a good player he was against high quality fast bowling with some truly awesome attacks around in the 90s. He did go on a couple of years too long as well.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2018, 15:34   #4919
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,720
Big difference between Stewart and Bairstow was the former never really wanted to keep wicket.
JRC67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2018, 17:59   #4920
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
What you spin as a weakness of county cricket could rather be seen as a virtue of test cricket. The fact remains that almost all the players realistically available for England selection are playing county cricket, and of those who aren't, some are already in the test team, and some aren't playing any cricket at all (because their IPL franchises don't pick them). So when it comes to replenishing the England team, county cricket is really the only place to choose from. The test team can't depend on picking players who don't play county cricket (Buttler is very much an exception and anyway may not make it as a test player), so if you think there's a problem then rather than just rubbishing county cricket perhaps some thought needs to be given to how it might become a better place for developing future test players. Presumably it doesn't help that during much of what used to be the championship season no championship cricket is played.
I criticise county cricket because it isn't producing the goods, not just for the sake of it. I would absolutely like to see changes made to ensure its standard is raised but none would be popular on here. One would be to reduce the number of CC games, but schedule them in May to early September.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:53.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Cricket247.org