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Old 19th February 2017, 00:14   #81
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It was the Chinese' own plans. They had some fairly ambitious plans in place to increase the amount of coaches and players. I imagine there was a reason why they thought this was achievable, and they weren't just pulling numbers out of the air. These plans were made eight years ago, but reading about the situation it appears the ICC did nothing to support or advise them, and momentum and interest was lost.
I asked you though. You were pushing the narrative that tests should be opened up to nations around the world, so I wondered whether you thought China could achieve anything resembling a test standard as you'd understand it as soon as the end of the decade.
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Old 19th February 2017, 11:56   #82
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I asked you though. You were pushing the narrative that tests should be opened up to nations around the world, so I wondered whether you thought China could achieve anything resembling a test standard as you'd understand it as soon as the end of the decade.
China have thrown far more money at football and have seen their national side slide down the rankings. Think they lost to Syria recently.
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Old 19th February 2017, 12:57   #83
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China have thrown far more money at football and have seen their national side slide down the rankings. Think they lost to Syria recently.
You seem very confused. The ICC is not looking to get Afg and go to start playing the top test nations, only that there will likely be structure where the top 9 teams play each other in a cycle, and the bottom 3 teams play each other. Theb ottom three teams will ikely include Zimb and 2 associates. I'm not sure if there is meant to be a relegation/promotion system but there is talk of one off tests between the bottom 3 and one of the better test nations during the cycle.

Thats great in many ways but I have not yet seen you fully articulate why you would be so against such an idea ?
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Old 19th February 2017, 15:09   #84
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You seem pretty confused too, bgtb, quoting a post about Chinese cricket to discuss Afghan cricket.
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Old 19th February 2017, 18:46   #85
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You seem very confused. The ICC is not looking to get Afg and go to start playing the top test nations, only that there will likely be structure where the top 9 teams play each other in a cycle, and the bottom 3 teams play each other. Theb ottom three teams will ikely include Zimb and 2 associates. I'm not sure if there is meant to be a relegation/promotion system but there is talk of one off tests between the bottom 3 and one of the better test nations during the cycle.

Thats great in many ways but I have not yet seen you fully articulate why you would be so against such an idea ?
I have no problem with Ireland or Afghanistan playing Zimbabwe in first class games. I wouldn't necessarily be that bothered if they were called tests, although they would certainly be "tests-lite". I think, however, given the state of Zimbabwean cricket, then this would be pretty slim pickings for Ireland and Afghanistan. For a start, there have been a few series like these, such as the one Afghanistan are bossing right now. So not sure how the three sides playing tests would really advance cricket for any of them.

I'm also not sure that this development is what some of the other posters advocating test expansion are really wanting either.
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Old 19th February 2017, 19:06   #86
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I asked you though. You were pushing the narrative that tests should be opened up to nations around the world, so I wondered whether you thought China could achieve anything resembling a test standard as you'd understand it as soon as the end of the decade.
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China have thrown far more money at football and have seen their national side slide down the rankings. Think they lost to Syria recently.
I don't have any reason to doubt the validity of the research carried out which led to them coming to the conclusion that their plans were possible. Nobody on here knows how they came up with the numbers or how confident they were of achieving them, but for them to be drawn up in the first place there would have been extensive research carried out.

What it is possible to say with certainty is that badminton and table tennis are very popular, and they have a very unique sporting culture. That said, they do generally have an interest in British exports and brands, and so it isn't too much of a jump to say it's possible they could be interested in out sport, which is evidenced by the ambitions to grow football.

If you look beneath the surface at what they are doing with football it's a long term project, and so losing games now or for the next five to ten years will not be a measure of success for the project. While the big money transfers have made the headlines, hundreds of European coaches are being offered the chance to go over there and help develop the next generation.

Obviously at this stage it can be said with some certainty that China won't be playing Test cricket by 2020 and they definitely won't be in the next World Cup. There are some articles which would indicate individual cricketing boards have tried to help them along, although the ICC has seemingly done very little. Unfortunately, unlike other sports, there are significant obstacles stopping teams playing cricket against the best sides, and until this changes cricket will be a niche sport only taken seriously by a few countries.
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Old 19th February 2017, 20:30   #87
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I think like cricket in the US, there will always be hype and excitement around the potential of the game to be taken up en masse in China. I don't know how many articles I've read about the factional nature of American cricket though and the game doesn't seemed to have progressed much over there.

As for Chinese football, from what I've read, I think they are actually very disappointed and worried about how little they're getting back from their investment right now. The national side has regressed since the turn of the century, despite all the effort over that time.
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Old 19th February 2017, 21:02   #88
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I don't know why China put forward a plan to be playing tests by 2020 but irrespective of how much research went in to it, which could have been loads (although unlikely) or none, it was always wildly unrealistic. You can't play test matches worthy of the name without a very significantly developed structure behind your game. I would imagine that even evolving a first class game in a county with an already thriving one day structure including a national side occasionally able to compete with the better teams would be a huge undertaking. Certainly it's not been easy for Ireland or possible at all really for Afghanistan.
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Old 20th February 2017, 18:33   #89
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I think like cricket in the US, there will always be hype and excitement around the potential of the game to be taken up en masse in China. I don't know how many articles I've read about the factional nature of American cricket though and the game doesn't seemed to have progressed much over there.

As for Chinese football, from what I've read, I think they are actually very disappointed and worried about how little they're getting back from their investment right now. The national side has regressed since the turn of the century, despite all the effort over that time.
Conversely, look how many snooker players have come through in ten years. With cricket being largely a game of hand eye coordination, I think there are plenty of kids in China with the core abilities to turn into cricketers if they really put their mind to it. I don't think they will as any small enthusiasm they had seems to have evaporated, but if it was an Olympic sport it might get their attention again. I don't think there is any hope in the USA.
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Old 20th February 2017, 18:43   #90
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Conversely, look how many snooker players have come through in ten years. With cricket being largely a game of hand eye coordination, I think there are plenty of kids in China with the core abilities to turn into cricketers if they really put their mind to it. I don't think they will as any small enthusiasm they had seems to have evaporated, but if it was an Olympic sport it might get their attention again. I don't think there is any hope in the USA.
Mainland China has only really produced one very good snooker player so far (Ding), despite the huge interest in the game over there. I think there will still be a time when they are as dominant as the home nations are, but it's still some way off.

Which, I think, goes to show how long it takes a break a sport into a new market. Doing so with cricket is somewhat fanciful, I fear, although as with the USA, even small amounts of coverage could be financially very rewarding. Hence the interest.
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Old 20th February 2017, 19:19   #91
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Mainland China has only really produced one very good snooker player so far (Ding), despite the huge interest in the game over there. I think there will still be a time when they are as dominant as the home nations are, but it's still some way off.

Which, I think, goes to show how long it takes a break a sport into a new market. Doing so with cricket is somewhat fanciful, I fear, although as with the USA, even small amounts of coverage could be financially very rewarding. Hence the interest.
They already have the second most players in the top 100 after England, so I'd say they're very close to surpassing the other home nations. Like I say, there are enough people over there for them to make a decent fist of cricket if there really was an incentive, which there isn't at the mo.
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Old 20th February 2017, 21:21   #92
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They already have the second most players in the top 100 after England, so I'd say they're very close to surpassing the other home nations. Like I say, there are enough people over there for them to make a decent fist of cricket if there really was an incentive, which there isn't at the mo.
Most of those are quite some way down the top 100 and let's not forget the slight population imbalance between China and Wales!

Anyhow, my point is not that China will end up being a dominant force in that game but that it's taken longer than many of the excited predictions from the turn of the millennium about the future of the game.

Cricket has pretty much now expanded to all the countries where it has, current or past, popular, mainstream appeal. It is now trying to spread into countries where it is a niche pastime played by small numbers of amateurs and ex-pats. This is a big challenge that simply waving the opportunity of playing test matches v Zimbabwe won't be a solution to.
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Old 21st February 2017, 10:01   #93
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...With cricket being largely a game of hand eye coordination, I think there are plenty of kids in China with the core abilities to turn into cricketers if they really put their mind to it. ...
Successfully hitting a moving ball, travelling at up to 90 mph, with not much time to do it, as opposed to pondering for minutes over a stationary one on the green baize, involves a very different skill set.

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Old 21st February 2017, 13:46   #94
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I think like cricket in the US, there will always be hype and excitement around the potential of the game to be taken up en masse in China. I don't know how many articles I've read about the factional nature of American cricket though and the game doesn't seemed to have progressed much over there.

As for Chinese football, from what I've read, I think they are actually very disappointed and worried about how little they're getting back from their investment right now. The national side has regressed since the turn of the century, despite all the effort over that time.
The problem with the chinese super league is they're paying over the odds for pretty ordinary players and not the kind of quality you might expect for the expenditure, and most are hitting 30 if not past that.

And whether it is sustainable is another question, throwing huge wages at ordinary players and whilst improving the quality of the domestic league quite a bit, still it will take time for the improvement to translate into quality of kids coming through.

Had a bit of a debate with someone about the MLS, they pointed to increases in attendance and indeed that it had moved up the list of sports in the US, but missed the point that the attendance compared to the heyday of the 70s was only a few thousand more despite it going so long with lots of hype and past it becks' and Gerrard's strutting around as a swansong.

MLS will unlikely displace their top 3 sports in popularity, even if Trump keeps out the mexicans and population diversifies. Even football popularity in China may be constrained by better competitions, people watching the Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, Champions League etc by this new fangled gimmick called 'TV' where the draw is because of the latter ie there's no worthwhile Champions League equivalent in China.


You have to wonder if Irish cricket would be remotely on the brink of maybe winning regularly in proper ODIs if it weren't so easy for them to ply their trade domestically in England.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:42   #95
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I have no problem with Ireland or Afghanistan playing Zimbabwe in first class games. I wouldn't necessarily be that bothered if they were called tests, although they would certainly be "tests-lite". I think, however, given the state of Zimbabwean cricket, then this would be pretty slim pickings for Ireland and Afghanistan. For a start, there have been a few series like these, such as the one Afghanistan are bossing right now. So not sure how the three sides playing tests would really advance cricket for any of them.

I'm also not sure that this development is what some of the other posters advocating test expansion are really wanting either.
Ok I totally get that.

The ICC plan is a big half and half tho and I think the ppl on here are divided between iether a proper test legaue or no major change. I think the ICC "middle path" is a good idea for now.

It does help expand the game, finanacially ofc but morei mportantly, as a sport and I'm all for that.

It's also important to provide some context to the one day side of things, especially in the build up to a smaller world cup.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:47   #96
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The problem with the chinese super league is they're paying over the odds for pretty ordinary players and not the kind of quality you might expect for the expenditure, and most are hitting 30 if not past that.

And whether it is sustainable is another question, throwing huge wages at ordinary players and whilst improving the quality of the domestic league quite a bit, still it will take time for the improvement to translate into quality of kids coming through.

Had a bit of a debate with someone about the MLS, they pointed to increases in attendance and indeed that it had moved up the list of sports in the US, but missed the point that the attendance compared to the heyday of the 70s was only a few thousand more despite it going so long with lots of hype and past it becks' and Gerrard's strutting around as a swansong.

MLS will unlikely displace their top 3 sports in popularity, even if Trump keeps out the mexicans and population diversifies. Even football popularity in China may be constrained by better competitions, people watching the Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, Champions League etc by this new fangled gimmick called 'TV' where the draw is because of the latter ie there's no worthwhile Champions League equivalent in China.


You have to wonder if Irish cricket would be remotely on the brink of maybe winning regularly in proper ODIs if it weren't so easy for them to ply their trade domestically in England.
I'm not sure if the comparison between how well Chinese football (maybe cricket in the future) does comparedt o the MLS is a good one.

The US has 3 major sports (4 if you include boxing in its heyday or UFC now) that football must compete with and its inclusion on a major basis is still pretty recent. I just dont think it can capture the public like a 100 or so years of baseball and NFL and similar period of basketball.

In China, they dont really have a really big sporting culture or a really big, actual Chinese sport. Yes they can catch the pl for instance on TV but imagine big money pumped into their own leafue, fans would be drawn to it I feel.

Cricket could invade that market but it would ofc take decades for China to go from nothing in the sport to even say, Bangladesh level.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 18:21   #97
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I'm not sure if the comparison between how well Chinese football (maybe cricket in the future) does comparedt o the MLS is a good one.

The US has 3 major sports (4 if you include boxing in its heyday or UFC now) that football must compete with and its inclusion on a major basis is still pretty recent. I just dont think it can capture the public like a 100 or so years of baseball and NFL and similar period of basketball.

In China, they dont really have a really big sporting culture or a really big, actual Chinese sport. Yes they can catch the pl for instance on TV but imagine big money pumped into their own leafue, fans would be drawn to it I feel.

Cricket could invade that market but it would ofc take decades for China to go from nothing in the sport to even say, Bangladesh level.
Given that China aren't even competing in the current World League Asia-Pacific tournament taking place in Bendigo, while Japan, Indonesia and the Philippines are, it's pretty obvious cricket isn't even a tiny deal over there currently.

Hong Kong have improved recently, in relative terms, but then they have a relatively large sub-continent population.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 21:55   #98
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Given that China aren't even competing in the current World League Asia-Pacific tournament taking place in Bendigo, while Japan, Indonesia and the Philippines are, it's pretty obvious cricket isn't even a tiny deal over there currently.

Hong Kong have improved recently, in relative terms, but then they have a relatively large sub-continent population.
I was talking about China's potential, not where it is right now.

Like I said, there is a lot of room in the sporting market in China.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 23:10   #99
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I was talking about China's potential, not where it is right now.

Like I said, there is a lot of room in the sporting market in China.
I refer you to Dylan Moran's riff on potential. Also, you forgot hockey as a major US sport. That's also well ahead of soccer there, as a spectator sport anyway, probably not in terms of participation.
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Old 27th February 2017, 23:53   #100
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I refer you to Dylan Moran's riff on potential. Also, you forgot hockey as a major US sport. That's also well ahead of soccer there, as a spectator sport anyway, probably not in terms of participation.
None of that has to do with what I've just said.
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