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Old 10th September 2017, 22:03   #21
Redmachine
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Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
I don't expect Ballance to be in the squad. He was clearly finished last winter, only made any squad at all this summer because of Root swinging it for his mate, then had to have an injury invented for him in order to get him out of the picture pronto as soon as it was realised that no miracle had occurred and he is still technically unsuited to test cricket.

I find it impossible to imagine a situation where Finn would play; if enough seamers were injured you'd send for Ball instead. Even so I don't think they'll need three back-up seamers. I wouldn't be surprised to see Westley miss out, but certainly with the amount of doubt there is regarding the viability of several of the top six at present I think they'll need another reserve batsman alongside Hales, and at this point I'd go for Hameed above Westley or Hales (who bar the odd magnificent innings apart has had a fairly mediocre season in red-ball cricket, I think). As mentioned above, Buttler and Dawson are inferior to Foakes and Rashid, but there we go. It's the England selectors' all-star team, after all.
They've tended to rest the first choice bowling line up in on the final FC match before Brisbane. They would therefore have to take 3 backups. They normally do.
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Old 10th September 2017, 22:14   #22
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Originally Posted by Redmachine View Post
They've tended to rest the first choice bowling line up in on the final FC match before Brisbane. They would therefore have to take 3 backups. They normally do.
If that's all the third backup seamer is for then they might as well play the second spinner instead.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:18   #23
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Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
If that's all the third backup seamer is for then they might as well play the second spinner instead.
They may want Stokes and Woakes to play just to get some time in with the bat as well considering they're likely to score more runs than many of our specialist batsman!
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:59   #24
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They may want Stokes and Woakes to play just to get some time in with the bat as well considering they're likely to score more runs than many of our specialist batsman!
Almost a bit of a joke calling some of them "specialist batsmen"

Agnew did a piece on BBC, and a stat in said article listed top 5 batsmen this summer and their averages.

Alastair Cook : 7 Tests, 572 runs @ 44.00
Joe Root : 7 Tests, 729 runs @ 60.75
Dawid Malan : 5 Tests, 189 runs @ 23.62
Tom Westley : 5 Tests, 193 runs @ 24.12
Keaton Jennings : 4 Tests, 127 runs @ 15.87
Mark Stoneman : 3 Tests, 120 runs @ 30.00
Jonny Bairstow : 2 Tests, 122 runs @ 30.50
Gary Ballance : 2 Tests, 85 runs @ 21.25

Not exactly great, Stoneman profiting from a not out against a windies attack that had given up as did Westley whose average is poor even with that bonus.

17 man squad for 13/14, mostly to see what the last tour squad make up was for down under.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cri...Australia.html

AN Cook (Essex, Captain)
MA Carberry (Hampshire)
GS Ballance (Yorkshire)
KP Pietersen (Surrey)
IR Bell (Warwickshire)
JE Root (Yorkshire)
IJL Trott (Warwickshire)

MJ Prior (Sussex, Vice Captain)
JM Bairstow (Yorkshire)

BA Stokes (Durham)
ST Finn (Middlesex)
JM Anderson (Lancashire)
SCJ Broad (Nottinghamshire)
WB Rankin (Warwickshire)
CT Tremlett (Surrey)

GP Swann (Nottinghamshire)
MS Panesar (Sussex)

Six seamers, two spinners, two keeper options and seven batsmen. Not really enough batting to cover the frailty of the England top order, but with 17-18 size squads you'd have to trust in your first choice bowling attack and maybe take an extra spinner, extra seamer and load as much batting as possible.

Panesar and Swann played five Tests between them as did Bairstow and Prior. Finn didn't play at all while Tremlett, Rankin, Ballance plus call ups Bresnan and Borthwick played one Test each.


So my guess as to who or what they might pick

Cook, Root, Hales, Malan, Stoneman, Ballance, Hameed
Bairstow, Buttler
Stokes, Woakes, Anderson, Roland-Jones, Broad, Wood
Ali, Rashid

Could almost be lucky dip after the first two, Hales perhaps a 'logical' recall (of sorts) given other failings, but if the selectors go with Bayliss' comments they've not exactly left themselves much prime steak to choose in that department, more scraps. Their selection policies this summer didn't exactly work out, all eggs in one basket and ended up with a basket full of raw egg goo

I wouldn't take Wood myself, Agnew expressed doubt about going without his express pace, but 26 wickets in 10 Tests @ 40.65 is hardly selling itself as a record and his ODI record is similarly poor so not even as if you can suggest he's shown his 'quality' in that format.

Do agree that Finn might be a good choice, but not convinced the selectors or maybe the captain have faith in him. Bowled only 11 overs in Bangladesh and didn't take a wicket, struggled at home against Pakistan but averaged under 30 in the previous 3 series he played in.

And he has a modest record against Australia, averaging 30, and in Australia averaging 33, not that 7 Tests is a lot to go on, 4 wickets per Test pretty handy mind.

I think the bowlers otherwise more or less pick themselves with a little doubt over Rashid as the second/reserve spinner.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:43   #25
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I'll be heading to the Melbourne test if anyone else is heading over.
I had hoped to be over then but looks unlikely. Mind you Australia should have the series win nailed by Melbourne.
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Old 11th September 2017, 11:22   #26
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See that Australia got 10 100s to England's 1 (Stokes) in the last Ashes series.
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Old 11th September 2017, 11:25   #27
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I'd expect Dawson over Rashid, Buttler over Foakes and whichever of Hameed and Jennings makes more runs in the next few weeks. Those three, plus the 11 who played at Lords with Wood and Woakes also pretty much certain to go leaves two spaces. Two from Finn, Ball, Ballance and Hales (or possibly Duckett, but it seems unlikely), then. I'd suggest the only slot really in doubt is Westley, who may miss out with both Ballance and Hales going in. Crane possibly a wildcard if Bayliss counts him as having "been involved"

Wouldn't be the squad I'd take but - based off our selectors' record and Bayliss' comments, I find it very hard to look beyond that group as forming the likely 18.
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Old 11th September 2017, 11:26   #28
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See that Australia got 10 100s to England's 1 (Stokes) in the last Ashes series.
Down under presumably the missing caveat. Certainly don't recall that happening when they toured us!
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Old 11th September 2017, 11:40   #29
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Renshaw (18 innings, 623 at 36.7)
Warner
Smith
Khawaja (42 innings, 1728 at 45.5)
Handscomb (19 innings, 743 at 53)
Maxwell (26 w/bat, 42 w/ball in Tests) / Cartwright (only played two tests) (??)
Wade (avg 28.6 but a string of single-figure scores) (??)
Cummins
Starc
Hazlewood
Lyon
It'll be interesting to see if the Aussies can put out that fast bowling attack in Brisbane.

Starc - Still recovering from stress fracture, could return in ODI's against India.
Hazlewood - Picked up a side strain in Bangladesh. Using Woakes as an indicator, it's touch and go if he makes Brisbane and would certainly not be 100%.
Pattinson - Injured again.
Cummins - An injury waiting to happen.

As for the keeper, I can't see them giving the gloves to Handscombe as he's become too important for them at 5. Wade is a glaring weakness now and there are no obvious replacements either.
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Old 11th September 2017, 11:46   #30
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Down under presumably the missing caveat. Certainly don't recall that happening when they toured us!
It was Aus 3 England 8 the previous time that England were there, when they rotated their bowlers.
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Old 11th September 2017, 11:56   #31
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It'll be interesting to see if the Aussies can put out that fast bowling attack in Brisbane.

Starc - Still recovering from stress fracture, could return in ODI's against India.
Hazlewood - Picked up a side strain in Bangladesh. Using Woakes as an indicator, it's touch and go if he makes Brisbane and would certainly not be 100%.
Pattinson - Injured again.
Cummins - An injury waiting to happen.

As for the keeper, I can't see them giving the gloves to Handscombe as he's become too important for them at 5. Wade is a glaring weakness now and there are no obvious replacements either.
I think it is generally accepted by fans on here that if Australia have a pace attack close to full strength that they will win comfortably. However that appears to be quite a big if. Cummins is a real big talent though, possibly the biggest that they've had for some time IMO.
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Old 11th September 2017, 11:59   #32
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I'd expect Dawson over Rashid, Buttler over Foakes and whichever of Hameed and Jennings makes more runs in the next few weeks. Those three, plus the 11 who played at Lords with Wood and Woakes also pretty much certain to go leaves two spaces. Two from Finn, Ball, Ballance and Hales (or possibly Duckett, but it seems unlikely), then. I'd suggest the only slot really in doubt is Westley, who may miss out with both Ballance and Hales going in. Crane possibly a wildcard if Bayliss counts him as having "been involved"

Wouldn't be the squad I'd take but - based off our selectors' record and Bayliss' comments, I find it very hard to look beyond that group as forming the likely 18.
I think Rashid is not going to feature, as England seem to have completely ignored him for tests so either of Dawson or Crane will get a shout. I don't see the point in Finn and Wood, the former is done at the highest level and the latter just isnt good enough.

As for the batting, I'd prefer Hales than Ballance and Buttler in the squad would be a boost, although he cant play while Bairstow is around ,especially since Jonnys keeping has gotten SO much better.

The players I would personally want going over there are (and some of their positions):

1. Cook
2. Stoneman
3. Root
4. Bairstow wk
5. Ali
6. Stokes
7. Rashid
8. Broad
9. TRJ
10. Plunkett
11. Anderson
12. Woakes
13. Porter
14. Buttler
15. Malan
16. Hales
17. Hameed/Jennings/Westley/Burns

I would not necessarily pick Rashid to start but a leggy is always a good idea, especially someone with the skill and experience of Rashid. I'd pick him over any spinner in England.

root at three and you all know how I feel about that but it seems very unlikely, so Westley or Ballance are likley to get a shout.

Plunkett and Porter for me are the two guys who should be part of the ENgland test set up but barely get spoken about. Pporter in particular has been impressive, especially watching him live. He has enough pace and more than enough accuracy to cause problems for guys like Warner and Smith who often play across the line of the ball.

Alas, this is too "edgy" a line up for Bayliss to pick lol
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:10   #33
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...Only other possibles would be Ballance, Hameed or Jennings ahead of Hales or Westley, but I think they'll be loyal to Westley and they'll like the fact that Hales can cover anywhere between 1-6. ...
Yes, none of Ballance's successors have done anything to suggest we have better options (and we need to remind ourselves that much of the time they were up against the West Indies).

I don't remember Hales acquitting himself too well at the top of the order when he was given his chance.
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:48   #34
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I don't remember Hales acquitting himself too well at the top of the order when he was given his chance.
No one in their right mind is considering Hales at the top surely? Number five might be a good slot for him but I reckon he's well down the pecking order.

Would you bring Ballance back? I have a horrible feeling that they will but it won't be a positive decision, more a case of "well, he's the least bad option".
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:55   #35
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The core of the problem is that surely you don't want to be takng batsmen to Australia that look like a personal tour disaster waiting to happen?

That doesn't mean they would turn out to be of course, but it is not the right starting point.

Stoneman, Westley, Malan - all only looked good in patches and none have gone on to get a 100. At least two will surely get the gig, though.

Jennings - walking wicket. Just no.

Ballance - long string of successive failures at Test level.

Hameed - unconvincing in domestic cricket this season - you need to be shouting "pick me!", or at the very least saying it, at that level and no-one can say he's doing that.

No easy answers though, as the alternatives appear to involve going back to people who have already been dropped for various similar reasons and none, except Hales in the widest context, have been smashing it at county level.
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Old 11th September 2017, 13:09   #36
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At least Hameed can say he's found some form at last - few more games left to carry it on. Last 4 innings have been 77*, 15, 21 (off 25 balls chasing a low target with high chance of rain) and now a really gritty 88. Sure he'd love a hundred, though, and I would certainly be worried about his struggles against pace being badly exposed in Oz.
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Old 11th September 2017, 13:44   #37
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The core of the problem is that surely you don't want to be takng batsmen to Australia that look like a personal tour disaster waiting to happen?

That doesn't mean they would turn out to be of course, but it is not the right starting point.

Stoneman, Westley, Malan - all only looked good in patches and none have gone on to get a 100. At least two will surely get the gig, though.

Jennings - walking wicket. Just no.

Ballance - long string of successive failures at Test level.

Hameed - unconvincing in domestic cricket this season - you need to be shouting "pick me!", or at the very least saying it, at that level and no-one can say he's doing that.

No easy answers though, as the alternatives appear to involve going back to people who have already been dropped for various similar reasons and none, except Hales in the widest context, have been smashing it at county level.
What is the evidence that Hameed has a weakness against pace bowling? Is this based upon him having a poor season and losing his wicket against English county seamers or has someone actually identified a technical deficiency?
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Old 11th September 2017, 14:12   #38
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Several commentators have said that he's played across the line a lot this season to the quicks and his shoulder often drops low. Against India he certainly looked more comfortable against the spinners, although it's a bit of a stretch to describe his performances there against the quicks as "weak".
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Old 11th September 2017, 14:20   #39
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I'd pick Hameed and Duckett at 2 and 3 personally. Try and get Hameed and Cook to get through the new ball then when the Kookaburra goes soft attack with the middle order. I reckon Duckett is the closest we've got to a Warner.

Cook, Hameed, Duckett, Root, Stokes, Ali, Bairstow, Woakes, TRJ, Broad, Anderson

Reserves: Hales, Stoneman, Buttler/Foakes, Rashid, Curran, Wood
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Old 11th September 2017, 17:24   #40
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Duckett is not a bad call at all. He was found out by the spin in Bangladesh/India, but that's not going to happen in Oz. His innings last week was unfortunately a match winner against Sussex and a class apart from anything else in the match.
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