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Old 8th September 2016, 18:16   #2121
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You obviously don't follow the England team particularly closely if you think that was the first time Finn has bowled effective reverse swing. However, we already knew that.
He also quite frequently gets conventional swing, which again DL suggested he doesn't but then DL preferring pre conceived opinions, especially of Southern bowlers, to what actually happens is hardly news. Of rather more interest is whether it's to do with his reformed action, which I would agree doesn't look like one which ought to generate much swing but does seem to. I don't think he got a lot of swing before he changed his action but I may be wrong.
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Old 8th September 2016, 18:56   #2122
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He also quite frequently gets conventional swing, which again DL suggested he doesn't but then DL preferring pre conceived opinions, especially of Southern bowlers, to what actually happens is hardly news. Of rather more interest is whether it's to do with his reformed action, which I would agree doesn't look like one which ought to generate much swing but does seem to. I don't think he got a lot of swing before he changed his action but I may be wrong.
Before he had his 2013 meltdown, if anything he swung the ball in to the batsman from a higher arm. A more readable (less pompous a***wipey) column by Mike Selvey pointed out that Finn's issues may have stemmed (at least partially) from advice suggesting that he needed to swing the ball away. He stopped having a full rotation of the arm and along with his issues of kicking the stumps seemed to have a less flowing run-up that resulted in said melt down.

I don't think his arm is as consistently high now but he has swung the ball away quite often, including his return at Edgbaston and Nottingham in the Ashes, a fine series performance in South Africa (that has been staggeringly forgotten by some poster on here) and in the Pakistan series just gone. It is also been forgotten that he was never super consistent before 2013 but he had a more repeatable method than he does which means too often regular opening of the pie-cart than he should. He also doesn't consistently maintain his pace as much as before 2013 due to the run-up full bowling arc issues I mentioned.
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Old 8th September 2016, 21:38   #2123
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Before he had his 2013 meltdown, if anything he swung the ball in to the batsman from a higher arm. A more readable (less pompous a***wipey) column by Mike Selvey pointed out that Finn's issues may have stemmed (at least partially) from advice suggesting that he needed to swing the ball away. He stopped having a full rotation of the arm and along with his issues of kicking the stumps seemed to have a less flowing run-up that resulted in said melt down.

I don't think his arm is as consistently high now but he has swung the ball away quite often, including his return at Edgbaston and Nottingham in the Ashes, a fine series performance in South Africa (that has been staggeringly forgotten by some poster on here) and in the Pakistan series just gone. It is also been forgotten that he was never super consistent before 2013 but he had a more repeatable method than he does which means too often regular opening of the pie-cart than he should. He also doesn't consistently maintain his pace as much as before 2013 due to the run-up full bowling arc issues I mentioned.
The problem with all aspects of his bowling is the consistent point you make several times. When it all falls right he can do a lot of things ... but too often at the moment it doesn't go right. At the moment he's very good on his day, but there is a lot of competition for his place and he really needs to have more of the good days to stay in the team.
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Old 8th September 2016, 22:00   #2124
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The problem with all aspects of his bowling is the consistent point you make several times. When it all falls right he can do a lot of things ... but too often at the moment it doesn't go right. At the moment he's very good on his day, but there is a lot of competition for his place and he really needs to have more of the good days to stay in the team.
Agree with this. We all know Finn is amazing when he clicks but it just doesn't happen often enough. He's a poor man's Harmison in that he is as streaky as Ashington's favourite son but hasn't reached the heights he has and England are lucky in having better bowlers at their disposal so they don't have to rely on him.
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Old 9th September 2016, 14:58   #2125
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One doesn't need any pre-conceived ideas to dismiss the thought that Finn is a swing bowler. Perhaps one does to take up the contrary position, though. The occasional delivery may swing, but that's the case for all bowlers of medium pace or above.
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Old 9th September 2016, 15:22   #2126
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One doesn't need any pre-conceived ideas to dismiss the thought that Finn is a swing bowler. Perhaps one does to take up the contrary position, though. The occasional delivery may swing, but that's the case for all bowlers of medium pace or above.
Subtle alteration in the terms of the debate there. Clearly Finn isn't a swing bowler in the way say Anderson is but then nobody said he was. Your previous point was that he struggles to swing the ball because of his action, which while sensible enough in theory, isn't actually true in practice, because he swings far more than the odd ball. Of course, with all the England cricket you watch with an open mind, you already know that.
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Old 9th September 2016, 15:23   #2127
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Subtle alteration in the terms of the debate there. Clearly Finn isn't a swing bowler in the way say Anderson is but then nobody said he was. Your previous point was that he struggles to swing the ball because of his action, which while sensible enough in theory, isn't actually true in practice, because he swings far more than the odd ball. Of course, with all the England cricket you watch with an open mind, you already know that.
I think the point D/L is making is that he's no Stuart Broad
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Old 10th September 2016, 10:12   #2128
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Assuming reports are correct and Hales, Morgan and Plunkett aren't touring, I'd pick this ODI squad for Bangladesh

1. Roy
2. Vince
3. Duckett
4. Billings
5. Buttler *+
6. D'Oliveira
7. Dawson
8. Jordan
9. Rashid
10. Willey
11. Wood

12. Malan
13. Ansari
14. Curran S
15. Finn

I'd leave the key test players at home.
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:20   #2129
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I wouldn't bother with Vince. Liam Livingstone anyone?

Brett D'Oliveira's form has fallen off a bit of a cliff recently. Joe Clarke might be a better bet.

I think it's academic though, I think the squad will be the usual suspects with replacements for the players you mentioned.
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:38   #2130
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Originally Posted by Fatslogger View Post
Subtle alteration in the terms of the debate there. Clearly Finn isn't a swing bowler in the way say Anderson is but then nobody said he was. Your previous point was that he struggles to swing the ball because of his action, which while sensible enough in theory, isn't actually true in practice, because he swings far more than the odd ball. Of course, with all the England cricket you watch with an open mind, you already know that.
I have to confess to not referring to the terms of the debate before expressing my opinion on this particular matter. In mitigation, I can only say that I thought there may not be any.

Finn the "swing bowler" does have a bit of a ring to it, though - as would, for example, Hales the "test run machine" or, but not quite as zippy, FS the "astute judge of mind sets based upon internet conversations".
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:57   #2131
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I wouldn't bother with Vince. Liam Livingstone anyone?

Brett D'Oliveira's form has fallen off a bit of a cliff recently. Joe Clarke might be a better bet.

I think it's academic though, I think the squad will be the usual suspects with replacements for the players you mentioned.
Haven't seen much of Livingstone. D'Oliveira's batting hasn't been the same since early June but his bowling has been very reasonable all season. Clarke is a good player, but I prefer going into a one dayer with 6 bowlers.

Don't see why Vince shouldn't be Hales' replacement. Nearly every time he's played white ball cricket for England, he's done well. His test form doesn't come into it for me. Fact is, he's always been a far better one day player than first class one.
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Old 10th September 2016, 16:13   #2132
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I have to confess to not referring to the terms of the debate before expressing my opinion on this particular matter. In mitigation, I can only say that I thought there may not be any.

Finn the "swing bowler" does have a bit of a ring to it, though - as would, for example, Hales the "test run machine" or, but not quite as zippy, FS the "astute judge of mind sets based upon internet conversations".
Unfortunately, your inference is incorrect and probably tendentious. I meant the terms of the debate you set in motion by saying something absurd you got called out on. Another good try in this post to get away from it but what you said about Finn rarely swinging it remains wrong.
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Old 11th September 2016, 12:04   #2133
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It seems we must then, defer to the self-elected and sole arbiter of the terms of any debate on here.

In order to adhere to them, though, it would be helpful to be made aware of them.
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Old 11th September 2016, 16:25   #2134
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Unfortunately, your inference is incorrect and probably tendentious. I meant the terms of the debate you set in motion by saying something absurd you got called out on. Another good try in this post to get away from it but what you said about Finn rarely swinging it remains wrong.
Finn may well swing the ball, but it's far from being his primary asset. If I'm picking him in my side it's for his pace (ok, potential pace), and ability to extract bounce).
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Old 11th September 2016, 20:18   #2135
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It seems we must then, defer to the self-elected and sole arbiter of the terms of any debate on here.

In order to adhere to them, though, it would be helpful to be made aware of them.
Well it's embarrassingly simple really: if you say something that's wrong, that's what gets discussed for a bit and trying to debate a somewhat different point to avoid looking silly, while a common tactic, gets pointed out. Of course, you already know that and probably realise that's what I meant all along, although obviously I can't say for sure.

B@sil, I agree you're not picking Finn especially because he can swing or reverse swing the ball, although he does have the capability to do both. There is rather more to his bowling than pace and bounce though, which is a good job given what's happened to his pace. I think they'll probably take him to Bangladesh and India but he's unlikely to get much play unless Broad or Anderson misses a game or two. I suppose they might try him if Woakes or Stokes is injured, although that's only likely along with two batting spinners and England might be quite anxious about a lower order of Woakes, Rashid, Broad, Finn, Anderson, if it's Stokes missing.
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Old 11th September 2016, 20:37   #2136
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Just doing some pre tour research into the Bangladesh side. They've barely played test cricket in the last 18 months so it's pretty tricky to work out what they're going to do in terms of selection, but there's a very reasonable chance that at least 4 or their top 6 will be lefties (Tamim, Kayes, Shakib, Haque). Might be a consideration when selecting the third spinner. Presumably they'd want to be taking the ball away from the bat, so Rayner and Batty could be favourites.

To counter this though, India have very few left handers, so perhaps getting a bowler ready for that tour would be more wise.
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Old 11th September 2016, 20:38   #2137
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So what does a putative XI look like for the winter? We have already heard a bit about Hameed being talked of as actually being on the tour and that Dawson is third spinner. I watched a bit of Dawson on Friday afternoon as I was down at the Oval. Tidy enough, varying his pace not too bad but not really looking very dangerous on a 4th day pitch. In fairness much of the time he was bowling to Sangakkara but even so I'm still fairly unconvinced.

Anyway here goes

Cook
Hameed
Root
Ballance
Ali
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson

I'm picking Ali at no.5 in Asia and have said so on a number of occasions. It may not work but he ho. I'm not entirely sure that the effect of 4 seamers is that promising to be honest.

In the back up batting I have Duckett who seems to be much talked about as a tourist in the rags. As for a second back up batsman? Crumbs I don't know who'll they go for. A wicket-keeper reserve? I can't see them picking Buttler as he's not even played a first class game this year. Maybe Foakes might get a call to perhaps appease the wicket-keeper purists?

So then it is likely Dawson and possibly Finn as the quick bowling reserve. Just not convinced about 3 reserves either in terms of the identity or effect.
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Old 11th September 2016, 20:46   #2138
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Just doing some pre tour research into the Bangladesh side. They've barely played test cricket in the last 18 months so it's pretty tricky to work out what they're going to do in terms of selection, but there's a very reasonable chance that at least 4 or their top 6 will be lefties (Tamim, Kayes, Shakib, Haque). Might be a consideration when selecting the third spinner. Presumably they'd want to be taking the ball away from the bat, so Rayner and Batty could be favourites.

To counter this though, India have very few left handers, so perhaps getting a bowler ready for that tour would be more wise.
A good point about Banglas lack of test match playing time. I had thought for a long time that this series against them would be a whole lot tougher than the last time, over 6 and a half years ago. However this fact and the lack of Mustafizur is something that probably goes to make them less dangerous than they might otherwise have been. They haven't played test cricket since the middle of last year and even then a couple of those games were called out.
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Old 11th September 2016, 20:55   #2139
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So what does a putative XI look like for the winter? We have already heard a bit about Hameed being talked of as actually being on the tour and that Dawson is third spinner. I watched a bit of Dawson on Friday afternoon as I was down at the Oval. Tidy enough, varying his pace not too bad but not really looking very dangerous on a 4th day pitch. In fairness much of the time he was bowling to Sangakkara but even so I'm still fairly unconvinced.

Anyway here goes

Cook
Hameed
Root
Ballance
Ali
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson

I'm picking Ali at no.5 in Asia and have said so on a number of occasions. It may not work but he ho. I'm not entirely sure that the effect of 4 seamers is that promising to be honest.

In the back up batting I have Duckett who seems to be much talked about as a tourist in the rags. As for a second back up batsman? Crumbs I don't know who'll they go for. A wicket-keeper reserve? I can't see them picking Buttler as he's not even played a first class game this year. Maybe Foakes might get a call to perhaps appease the wicket-keeper purists?

So then it is likely Dawson and possibly Finn as the quick bowling reserve. Just not convinced about 3 reserves either in terms of the identity or effect.
Pretty much guaranteed to be the Xl. Reckon they'll take 4 reserves. Duckett and Wood will definitely be two of them. Finn will probably just beat Ball and then it'll be a toss up between Dawson and Ansari for the 3rd spinner spot. They're so desperate for the spinners to bat.
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Old 11th September 2016, 22:14   #2140
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Just doing some pre tour research into the Bangladesh side. They've barely played test cricket in the last 18 months so it's pretty tricky to work out what they're going to do in terms of selection, but there's a very reasonable chance that at least 4 or their top 6 will be lefties (Tamim, Kayes, Shakib, Haque). Might be a consideration when selecting the third spinner. Presumably they'd want to be taking the ball away from the bat, so Rayner and Batty could be favourites.

To counter this though, India have very few left handers, so perhaps getting a bowler ready for that tour would be more wise.
What test cricket Bangla did have at home was rain affected too so it's hard to call the team and its merits, although there ought to be a gulf in class, even in spinning conditions and even with England's highly dubious top order. May be an interesting series even so.
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