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Old 16th October 2007, 12:44   #241
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That's the thing the logic is OK if said wicket keeper batsman is actually capable of scoring well on a regular basis, yet England in recent times have hedged their bets by going for their w/k to be opener and its been a failure far more often than not.
Going for a wicketkeeper who's an opener, rather. Only Gojo was forced into a situation he was unfamiliar with. Both Prior and Mustard were pretty crap for their counties lower down the order, until moved upwards. And no-ones replied to this point yet, apart from the obligatory mention of Tres.
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it would help if there was somebody in England capable of opening the batting for England in ODIs. Nobody on here seems to have made a convincing argument for an English batsman to open, nor really tried
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Old 16th October 2007, 12:45   #242
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Solanki.
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Old 16th October 2007, 12:46   #243
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Solanki.
I find that joke to be in very poor taste, I'm afraid.
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Old 16th October 2007, 12:48   #244
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Solanki.
Oh, you've really convinced me with that argument
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Old 16th October 2007, 12:50   #245
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I find that joke to be in very poor taste, I'm afraid.
I'm not joking. I was very impressed in the 20/20s (especially with the idea of him as w/k). His ODI record may be a bit mixed, but he is a better option than any of these other w/k openers England are obsessed with.

Cook, Solanki, Bell, KP, Colly, Shah, Bopara, Swann, Broad, Sidebottom, Anderson. Looks good to me.
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Old 16th October 2007, 12:51   #246
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Going for a wicketkeeper who's an opener, rather. Only Gojo was forced into a situation he was unfamiliar with. Both Prior and Mustard were pretty crap for their counties lower down the order, until moved upwards. And no-ones replied to this point yet, apart from the obligatory mention of Tres.
My point was though, that when we were looking for an opener we were going for a punt by having the wk up the order when there was little evidence that they could (ahem!) cut the mustard at the top of the order, and the wk who hits some 20s or 30s isn't really whats needed. Conversely if these guys were capable of hitting 20s/30s from no7 they'd actually be doing a decent jub.
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Old 16th October 2007, 12:59   #247
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My point was though, that when we were looking for an opener we were going for a punt by having the wk up the order when there was little evidence that they could (ahem!) cut the mustard at the top of the order, and the wk who hits some 20s or 30s isn't really whats needed. Conversely if these guys were capable of hitting 20s/30s from no7 they'd actually be doing a decent jub.
Little evidence apart from being the top scorer in domestic List A this season?
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Old 16th October 2007, 13:03   #248
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I'm not joking. I was very impressed in the 20/20s (especially with the idea of him as w/k). His ODI record may be a bit mixed, but he is a better option than any of these other w/k openers England are obsessed with.

Cook, Solanki, Bell, KP, Colly, Shah, Bopara, Swann, Broad, Sidebottom, Anderson. Looks good to me.
I know you weren't joking but I'm still surprised that you're serious. Solanki doesn't so much have an ODI record that's "a bit mixed" as one that's outright bad with the odd good score thrown in just to frustrate us. He's not going to score many if any more runs than the other keeping options, even if we assume that keeping isn't going to reduce his expectancy even below its already low mark. He's not a specialist keeper either so would be less likely to be able to cope with keeping without losing his batting, quite apart from the inferiority of his keeping. Doing okay in one 20:20 doesn't equate to being able to keep for 50 overs then open the batting on the same day. I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole.
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Old 16th October 2007, 13:07   #249
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Little evidence apart from being the top scorer in domestic List A this season?
I was actually referring as much to Prior as mustard its just that the expression that I used kind of led me to use that pun! I still think though that the policy of your wk having to open is somewhat flawed even if Mustard fine season in List A. It seems that the selectors aren't that open minded as to the shape of the team. I think Mustard has done enough to deserve a bit more of a go as it happens but I don't like the selectors insistence on this policy of the wk opening.
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Old 16th October 2007, 13:19   #250
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I know you weren't joking but I'm still surprised that you're serious. Solanki doesn't so much have an ODI record that's "a bit mixed" as one that's outright bad with the odd good score thrown in just to frustrate us. He's not going to score many if any more runs than the other keeping options, even if we assume that keeping isn't going to reduce his expectancy even below its already low mark. He's not a specialist keeper either so would be less likely to be able to cope with keeping without losing his batting, quite apart from the inferiority of his keeping. Doing okay in one 20:20 doesn't equate to being able to keep for 50 overs then open the batting on the same day. I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole.
As a proper batsman I would expect him to score a lot more runs than pinch-hitting keepers, hence he would still be a better option even if his ODI career to date isn't any great shakes. His average as an opener is around 28.

Taking off the rose-coloured specs, I can see that it's not going to happen. He isn't going to be able to develop as a wicket-keeper to any great standard, and when would he get the opportunity to practise anyway? But if people are demanding a test recall for Ramprakash at the age of 38 I don't see why an ODI recall at the age of 31 is out of the question for Solanki, perhaps as an opening batsman only, given that we can't come up with any other names. His List A average last season was 46.33 with a hs of 144*. Not wanting to touch him with a bargepole is a bit extreme. I'd love to see him given another chance.
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Old 16th October 2007, 13:22   #251
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As a proper batsman I would expect him to score a lot more runs than pinch-hitting keepers, hence he would still be a better option even if his ODI career to date isn't any great shakes. His average as an opener is around 28.

Taking off the rose-coloured specs, I can see that it's not going to happen. He isn't going to be able to develop as a wicket-keeper to any great standard, and when would he get the opportunity to practise anyway? But if people are demanding a test recall for Ramprakash at the age of 38 I don't see why an ODI recall at the age of 31 is out of the question for Solanki, perhaps as an opening batsman only, given that we can't come up with any other names. His List A average last season was 46.33 with a hs of 144*. Not wanting to touch him with a bargepole is a bit extreme. I'd love to see him given another chance.
His record is utterly shocking though. If his average is 28 at a pedestrian strike rate then why is he that much better than a pinch hitting keeper? Certainly his keeping isn't going to be as good. Fine, select an opener to open but not Solanki and not as keeper.
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Old 16th October 2007, 13:25   #252
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His record is utterly shocking though. If his average is 28 at a pedestrian strike rate then why is he that much better than a pinch hitting keeper? Certainly his keeping isn't going to be as good. Fine, select an opener to open but not Solanki and not as keeper.
Nobody can think of any other openers except Trescothick though. Just looked at the strike rate. It's not too great, is it? Not in conjunction with Cook's, anyway.
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Old 16th October 2007, 13:25   #253
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His record is utterly shocking though. If his average is 28 at a pedestrian strike rate then why is he that much better than a pinch hitting keeper? Certainly his keeping isn't going to be as good. Fine, select an opener to open but not Solanki and not as keeper.
I agree. One of the big problems with Solanki is how many times he fails. Out for less than twenty 30 times in 51 ODIs. The no Ramps please arguments also apply.

Out for less than ten 17 times as well.
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Old 16th October 2007, 13:27   #254
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Nobody can think of any other openers except Trescothick though. Just looked at the strike rate. It's not too great, is it? Not in conjunction with Cook's, anyway.
That underlies the problem, we hope to massage it with the pinchitting keeper but it keeps coming back and biting us on the bum.
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Old 16th October 2007, 13:32   #255
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The Solanki thing is a mixture of disappointment that he didn't make the most of his chances and a dream that he will come back and show everybody if given another chance. He's a good player, an excellent fielder, a good captain, so why has he not become one of our great ODI batsmen? So sad that he is destined to go down as yet another England under-achiever.
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Old 16th October 2007, 21:48   #256
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That underlies the problem, we hope to massage it with the pinchitting keeper but it keeps coming back and biting us on the bum.
it doesn't really bite us on the bum at all because we have won two series in a row. I think the last couple of pages proves the point that there is nobody out there who can open the innings, so rather than move the middle order players about to open e.g. Joyce and Bell, just give the keeper a go. If Tres was fit he would walk in but he isn't. Solanki is an interesting case but I think FS has shot that one down quite convincingly
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Old 17th October 2007, 23:56   #257
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Well Ali topped the batting averages for the Sri Lanka ODI series. Doesn't mean all that much given how poor all the other batsmen were.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/...3150;type=tour

More alarmingly, only Swann and Mustard got a strike rate of over 80.
If you look at the type of pitches these 2 sides played on you shouldnt be surprised only 2 players had strike rates over 80. Out of the 5 matches I would say only 1 was good for a game of cricket and that was game 4.
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Old 17th October 2007, 23:59   #258
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I'm not joking. I was very impressed in the 20/20s (especially with the idea of him as w/k). His ODI record may be a bit mixed, but he is a better option than any of these other w/k openers England are obsessed with.

Cook, Solanki, Bell, KP, Colly, Shah, Bopara, Swann, Broad, Sidebottom, Anderson. Looks good to me.
Thats a decent line up for an ODI..
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Old 18th October 2007, 15:30   #259
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Thats a decent line up for an ODI..
Apart from Solanki it's not too bad. Oh and it's missing a keeper.
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Old 18th October 2007, 19:37   #260
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Apart from Solanki it's not too bad. Oh and it's missing a keeper.
You're likely to find that Solanki is the keeper
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