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Old 12th May 2016, 10:53   #61
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
Hoult says "Cook could build a strong case for his Essex team-mate Tom Westley,
the in-form batsman in division two apart from Cook". But neither Hoult nor Cook appears to be bothering to make a case for Sam Robson who is in- form and in division one.
Presumably averaging less than 30 last season in first class cricket counted against Robson.

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Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
So does anyone believe the saying "go to county cricket and score runs or take wickets"
I can think of one who believed it last year, to his personal detriment (although to charity's benefit).

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Originally Posted by CDogg16 View Post
If I was Robson I'd be fairly demoralised, and looking up eligibility to see how long it is until he can play for Australia.





A few days a go the selectors said they were not just looking at players from division one who are in form, but the second tier as well. It looks like they were looking at neither and had the squad decided well in advance of the start of the season. Westley has been in fantastic touch and Robson has had a great start to the season, performing far better than Hales. Vince has scored one ton in a what has been a batsman's season.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 12th May 2016, 11:16   #62
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If I was Robson I'd be fairly demoralised, and looking up eligibility to see how long it is until he can play for Australia.
I doubt it, he'll just think he needs to continue scoring runs and wait until the selectors decide that Hales has had enough of an opportunity, which after four Tests they evidently don't.

What might count in Hales' and Compton's favours is the comparison made with England's highest scoring est batsman of all time. In the last series Compton averaged 31, more than Cook and Hales 17. What that suggests to me is that it was a tough series for our top order, maybe due to South Africa's opening bowlers being useful? Is it realistic to expect newcomers to outperform our skipper and all-time top runs scorer so easily? Potentially they get an extra opportunity because of this.
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Old 12th May 2016, 11:36   #63
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So we know the line up for the first Test, barring any injuries

Cook, Hales, Compton, Root, Vince, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Broad, Finn, Anderson
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Old 12th May 2016, 11:41   #64
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Just so I can be clear - are we pretending he is not averaging 91 at a strike rate of 72 this season?
Plunkett has performed well with the bat this season, doesn't mean he should get into the side as a bowler. Are we pretending Ali doesn't have the third worse bowling average of any bowler across the two divisions so far this season.
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Old 12th May 2016, 11:47   #65
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Plunkett has performed well with the bat this season, doesn't mean he should get into the side as a bowler. Are we pretending Ali doesn't have the third worse bowling average of any bowler across the two divisions so far this season.
The looming winter tour to India is keeping Ali in the team - obviously some fear of going over there with two inexperienced spinners.

Question is will can he continue to do the bare minimum to avoid being dropped over the summer ?
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Old 12th May 2016, 12:38   #66
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It's possible that the selectors consider more than just weight of runs when picking the side, but also examine the players technique when doing so. It is often true that batsmen can score plenty at domestic level despite having huge technical flaws that render them useless in international cricket. Robson and Lyth both being cases in point.
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Old 12th May 2016, 12:47   #67
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The looming winter tour to India is keeping Ali in the team - obviously some fear of going over there with two inexperienced spinners.

Question is will can he continue to do the bare minimum to avoid being dropped over the summer ?
Let's hope he picks up more of the man of the match awards like he did in one of our tour victories vs saffers.
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Old 12th May 2016, 13:23   #68
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I think it's a fair enough squad. Perhaps Vince will do a Trott and move quickly up to 3 if Hales or Compton don't do particularly well.
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Old 12th May 2016, 15:07   #69
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It's possible that the selectors consider more than just weight of runs when picking the side, but also examine the players technique when doing so. It is often true that batsmen can score plenty at domestic level despite having huge technical flaws that render them useless in international cricket. Robson and Lyth both being cases in point.
I'm never quite sure how this works. After all, the game is the same. The main difference is the fifth day, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. If Robson's been worked out in tests and a great defect has been identified, how come first-division attacks -- many of which include test bowlers -- don't find it easier to get him out? I think that by and large the batsmen who aren't good enough for internationals but boss it in the CC had their test careers curtailed by something other than technical flaws (e.g. Ramps, Bell, Tres). With Lyth even, I think that what did for him was that he lost his confidence in his own ability.
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Old 12th May 2016, 15:21   #70
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I'm never quite sure how this works. After all, the game is the same. The main difference is the fifth day, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. If Robson's been worked out in tests and a great defect has been identified, how come first-division attacks -- many of which include test bowlers -- don't find it easier to get him out? I think that by and large the batsmen who aren't good enough for internationals but boss it in the CC had their test careers curtailed by something other than technical flaws (e.g. Ramps, Bell, Tres). With Lyth even, I think that what did for him was that he lost his confidence in his own ability.
They did last year.
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Old 12th May 2016, 17:44   #71
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I'm never quite sure how this works. After all, the game is the same. The main difference is the fifth day, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. If Robson's been worked out in tests and a great defect has been identified, how come first-division attacks -- many of which include test bowlers -- don't find it easier to get him out? I think that by and large the batsmen who aren't good enough for internationals but boss it in the CC had their test careers curtailed by something other than technical flaws (e.g. Ramps, Bell, Tres). With Lyth even, I think that what did for him was that he lost his confidence in his own ability.
I was going to say mental as well. I think there are two differences between international and domestic. One is obviously pressure playing in front of full houses, on tv etc in games with higher stakes both personally and for the team. The other is that on average the attacks are better in international teams, both in terms of ability and coaching.

As GBG says, though, Robson was poor last year but done much better so far this season on good tracks. It may be we are just seeing fluctuations in form and fortune rather than demonstrable evidence of an improvement in his game. Perhaps shrewder judges than us can see through the mirage of county runs to the deficiencies underneath.

Clearly our selectors judge more on whether they feel a player has "it", than hot streaks in county cricket. This has been the case for a while now.

I am not conVinced but will give him the benefit of the doubt for now. Not sure others on here will be so inclined.
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Old 12th May 2016, 20:14   #72
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Saves me getting up for 7am then tomorrow.

Oh wait, I still have to go to work.
You have a job, Aidan?
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Old 12th May 2016, 20:46   #73
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You have a job, Aidan?

Oddly enough yes.
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Old 12th May 2016, 20:55   #74
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... Perhaps shrewder judges than us can see through the mirage of county runs to the deficiencies underneath.

Clearly our selectors judge more on whether they feel a player has "it", than hot streaks in county cricket. This has been the case for a while now.
Yes, I think you're generally right, and that periods of county form can mask weaknesses. But, for example, colleagues on these forums have recently noted that what did for Ballance in tests is now seemingly curtailing his county success as well.

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I am not conVinced but will give him the benefit of the doubt for now. Not sure others on here will be so inclined.
I will. I'm excited by his selection and I wish him all the best.
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Old 12th May 2016, 21:03   #75
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I'm never quite sure how this works. After all, the game is the same. The main difference is the fifth day, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. If Robson's been worked out in tests and a great defect has been identified, how come first-division attacks -- many of which include test bowlers -- don't find it easier to get him out? I think that by and large the batsmen who aren't good enough for internationals but boss it in the CC had their test careers curtailed by something other than technical flaws (e.g. Ramps, Bell, Tres). With Lyth even, I think that what did for him was that he lost his confidence in his own ability.
It's insulting to all three players to link Ramps, Bell and Tres as if they are three failures and are somehow the same. Trescothick was and is a fantastic batsman whose problem had nothing to do with cricket or match temperament but mental issues brought on by travelling. Without that condition he could have been our leading run scorer. Ramprakash was a fabulous batsman who never quite made it at international level - just the two centuries. In tests, Bell has made over 7000 runs and 22 centuries and is England's 8th highest run scorer. He is also still England's leading ODI run scorer with 5416 runs. There have been highs and lows, and last year was certainly a big low, but seriously, suggesting that someone with his achievements is not up to international cricket is bonkers.
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Old 12th May 2016, 21:10   #76
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Bell should have played tests for another 2 years and he didn't develop any glaring technical faults, so I don't think sans was being inaccurate.
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Old 12th May 2016, 21:10   #77
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It's insulting to all three players to link Ramps, Bell and Tres as if they are three failures and are somehow the same. Trescothick was and is a fantastic batsman whose problem had nothing to do with cricket or match temperament but mental issues brought on by travelling. Without that condition he could have been our leading run scorer. Ramprakash was a fabulous batsman who never quite made it at international level - just the two centuries. In tests, Bell has made over 7000 runs and 22 centuries and is England's 8th highest run scorer. He is also still England's leading ODI run scorer with 5416 runs. There have been highs and lows, and last year was certainly a big low, but seriously, suggesting that someone with his achievements is not up to international cricket is bonkers.
Calm down, Michelle, and read that apparently offending sentence again. I haven't insulted any of those three players, or called them failures, or suggested they are the same (except in the stated sense that their test careers weren't curtailed by technical flaws). If it helps (and won't be mistaken for blatant character conflation), I can say I have a great deal of respect for all three of them.
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Old 12th May 2016, 21:14   #78
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Just imagine if you'd mentioned Hick in the same post.
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Old 12th May 2016, 21:20   #79
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Just imagine if you'd mentioned Hick in the same post.
Could've chucked in a certain ***** ********* and the whole place would've gone down in flames.
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Old 12th May 2016, 21:53   #80
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Calm down, Michelle, and read that apparently offending sentence again. I haven't insulted any of those three players, or called them failures, or suggested they are the same (except in the stated sense that their test careers weren't curtailed by technical flaws). If it helps (and won't be mistaken for blatant character conflation), I can say I have a great deal of respect for all three of them.
Yes, you can say that. So do I.

But when Bell comes up for discussion, on other forums, not this one, you get people saying he's not up to international cricket, despite the evidence of the achievements mentioned above.

I think it's fair to say that Bell's main crime is not to have achieved all the success that was predicted for him as a talented teenager.

After a dismal showing in the Ashes in 2005 at the age of 23 there was a view, largely propagated by pundits, that we had all been misled and Bell wasn't the player he'd been cracked up to be. This idea persisted despite subsequent successes including being highest run scorer and topping the averages on the Pak tour immediately following that Ashes. These days several journalists admit that Bell has somehow failed to get all the credit he deserves, with pundits emphasising the negative rather than the positive, e.g. not being the first batsman in the innings to get a 100 and making a lot of runs v Bangladesh (what was he supposed to do?). Having been labelled as an under-achiever, what would happen is that every time he made a valuable contribution in testing conditions, it would be said that Bell had "come of age at last" - only for this to be forgotten. The last time he came of age was the Ashes 13 when he was 31.

In summary, Bell has been a very good England cricketer with a record many would envy and which for anyone else would be seen as remarkably successful. But he has been vilified for being a beautiful strokemaker (of "pretty fifties" ) who didn't quite live up to expectations.
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