Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > England
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 23rd January 2020, 16:45   #1
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,196
Jofra Archer thread

I don't think we've created one yet.

I see KP has criticised the treatment of Archer by the England team on this tour.

Quote:
"Archer is copping it at the moment, and probably because he's from the Caribbean."
Certainly a bit of a euphemism there.

Root leapt to Archer's defence, although question marks have to be raised about how Root in particular has handled Archer and how he talks about him to the press.

Reading between the lines Root wants Archer to bowl fast all the time, and for long spells, and is irritated that Archer can't do this to his satisfaction. Doesn't reflect well on the captain, tbh
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2020, 17:01   #2
Comte Nom de Plume
County Pro
 
Comte Nom de Plume's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gloucestershire
Team(s): Worcs and Yorks CCCs
Posts: 861
You read between the lines what you will. KP is demonstrating his well-worn capacity for stirring up the excrement. No wonder he was so well loved with the England dressing room.

Root is right to want Archer to bowl fast, although he would be wrong to expect him, or indeed any decent quickie, to do so for long spells. If Archer is incapable of bowling fast on a regular but not prolonged basis, his value to the team is diminished. But frankly I award this 'story' a Harry and Meghan rating of minus 1 on the Piers scale.
Comte Nom de Plume is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2020, 19:29   #3
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comte Nom de Plume View Post
You read between the lines what you will. KP is demonstrating his well-worn capacity for stirring up the excrement. No wonder he was so well loved with the England dressing room.

Root is right to want Archer to bowl fast, although he would be wrong to expect him, or indeed any decent quickie, to do so for long spells. If Archer is incapable of bowling fast on a regular but not prolonged basis, his value to the team is diminished. But frankly I award this 'story' a Harry and Meghan rating of minus 1 on the Piers scale.
I guess whether Archer's value diminishes if he can't bowl fast depends on whether he is less capable of being a threat at lower speeds. My suspicion is that when Root talks about bowling fast he has a limited concept involving asking his quicks to pound it in halfway down the track over after over.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2020, 20:41   #4
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 11,947
I don't think Jofra has been used better or worse than anyone else under Joe's captaincy as he has a record for being pretty clueless when it comes to most things as skipper. Wasting his energy opening the bowling and ending his spell just when Smith was starting his innings in the Ashes was ridiculous, as was bowling 40 overs in that innings in NZ.
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2020, 21:02   #5
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
I don't think Jofra has been used better or worse than anyone else under Joe's captaincy as he has a record for being pretty clueless when it comes to most things as skipper. Wasting his energy opening the bowling and ending his spell just when Smith was starting his innings in the Ashes was ridiculous, as was bowling 40 overs in that innings in NZ.
Well, he misused Wood in the last test and also overused himself. Trouble is that while Broad and Anderson will tell Root to possess **** off if they really don't want to do something, Wood is too nice and Archer has attracted his captain's disappointment.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2020, 21:59   #6
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 25,779
Aren’t there stories that he is not very good at the stuff that is non negotiable? Stuff like being on time etc?
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2020, 22:50   #7
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 11,810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Arenít there stories that he is not very good at the stuff that is non negotiable? Stuff like being on time etc?
There would be wouldn't there. This series Archer six wickets per match, everyone else below four.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 08:44   #8
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Arenít there stories that he is not very good at the stuff that is non negotiable? Stuff like being on time etc?
You mean the sort of behaviour that "people from the Caribbean" always get accused of?

I guess we can add Archer to the long list of "people from other parts of the world" who've had their attitude and mentality continually questioned when playing for England.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 09:56   #9
cg3
County Pro
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 763
As an outsider, I find the negativity against Archer absolutely incredible. You’d have thought Archer won England the World Cup and made a stunning start to Test cricket - in the Ashes no less - 6 years ago, not 6 months ago.

One can speculate on the reasons (and no Sir Virgs, the English management’s whispers about him not turning up to training on time aren’t a justification) but it certainly doesn’t paint English cricket or the press in a good light. Ungrateful, to say the least.
cg3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 11:05   #10
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 25,745
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
As an outsider, I find the negativity against Archer absolutely incredible. Youíd have thought Archer won England the World Cup and made a stunning start to Test cricket - in the Ashes no less - 6 years ago, not 6 months ago.

One can speculate on the reasons (and no Sir Virgs, the English managementís whispers about him not turning up to training on time arenít a justification) but it certainly doesnít paint English cricket or the press in a good light. Ungrateful, to say the least.
You and me both. It has to be remembered that he had no great experience of playing first class cricket prior to debuting back in July so some of the bile that has been placed on him by some is pretty nasty in my book.

I also agree that at times he has hardly been used correctly with the long spells and clocking up the number of overs that is going to diminish his ability to bowl flat out quick. Now it appears he's failed a fitness test for the closing match of the series.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 12:36   #11
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 25,779
I like archer. Don’t anyone thing otherwise.

The issue with team dynamics and non-negotiables is interesting. If it is clear you have to be in a certain place at a certain time then surely it is relevant isn’t it? If you let little things go for someone then others might do something else. Before you know it the whole thing is a mess. Not because of major issue but because of lots of little ones.

We don’t know what has happened. Maybe he has been warned internally but not changed so they leak stuff to see if that works. I don’t know, and not do any of us. I find it confusing that people immediately jump on the issue of race. I don’t think I heard comments like this about Chris Jordan did I? If he is late then he is late, it would be racist to say “he is late but from the West Indies so that is okay”

The fact is none of us know what has gone on and what has been said. We are all just speculating.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 13:02   #12
square leg umpire
Legendary
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: yorkshire
Team(s): yorkshire
Posts: 9,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
You mean the sort of behaviour that "people from the Caribbean" always get accused of?

I guess we can add Archer to the long list of "people from other parts of the world" who've had their attitude and mentality continually questioned when playing for England.
I doubt if that sort of thing is tolerated in the West Indies set up either. Red herring.
square leg umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 13:04   #13
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 11,810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
I like archer. Don’t anyone thing otherwise.

The issue with team dynamics and non-negotiables is interesting. If it is clear you have to be in a certain place at a certain time then surely it is relevant isn’t it? If you let little things go for someone then others might do something else. Before you know it the whole thing is a mess. Not because of major issue but because of lots of little ones.

We don’t know what has happened. Maybe he has been warned internally but not changed so they leak stuff to see if that works. I don’t know, and not do any of us. I find it confusing that people immediately jump on the issue of race. I don’t think I heard comments like this about Chris Jordan did I? If he is late then he is late, it would be racist to say “he is late but from the West Indies so that is okay”

The fact is none of us know what has gone on and what has been said. We are all just speculating.
I suppose the difference is that British culture is now so much more obviously and deliberately xenophobic. Xenophobia is the only policy of the present government and the people love it. It's open season. Why wouldn't Archer be targeted?
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 13:34   #14
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 23,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
I like archer. Donít anyone thing otherwise.

The issue with team dynamics and non-negotiables is interesting. If it is clear you have to be in a certain place at a certain time then surely it is relevant isnít it? If you let little things go for someone then others might do something else. Before you know it the whole thing is a mess. Not because of major issue but because of lots of little ones.

We donít know what has happened. Maybe he has been warned internally but not changed so they leak stuff to see if that works. I donít know, and not do any of us. I find it confusing that people immediately jump on the issue of race. I donít think I heard comments like this about Chris Jordan did I? If he is late then he is late, it would be racist to say ďhe is late but from the West Indies so that is okayĒ

The fact is none of us know what has gone on and what has been said. We are all just speculating.
I don't know where the rumours of his lack of punctuality have come from, not heard them myself. Assuming what you say is true (either the rumours exist and/or Archer is tardy), I'd argue that England has too long a history of demanding a narrow set of behaviour as being part of a team, often to the detriment of more maverick players or those who don't originate from a stereotypical middle class English background. The only non-negotiable should be that when players go out on the field they play to the best of their ability in order to try and win. Everything up that point should be negotiated, whether at the team level or individual.

Is Archer turning up late because he's lazing around or because he believes he should prepare in other ways? Is he a bit disenfranchised because of how he was used in NZ or down because he's injured and can't play? Either way Root should do a better job in interviews and stop making thinly veiled insinuations about his attitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by square leg umpire View Post
I doubt if that sort of thing is tolerated in the West Indies set up either. Red herring.
I think you miss my point. If the English management wanted to put out rumours to discredit Archer, using stereotypical tropes about West Indians is a good way of ensuring they get unquestioning forwarding on in the media.

As a final point, Archer has not made any comment, critical or otherwise, about how he's getting on in the England camp, but somewhere someone is providing a steady drip of negativity about him.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 14:59   #15
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 25,779
Ali - Vaughan was discussing it. I obviously don’t know if true but the existence of a rumour is. Everyone else being ready on the team bus and waiting.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 15:03   #16
Michelle Fivefer
Posting Goddess
 
Michelle Fivefer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North West England
Team(s): England, Lancashire
Posts: 43,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Ali - Vaughan was discussing it. I obviously donít know if true but the existence of a rumour is. Everyone else being ready on the team bus and waiting.
Iíd bet Flintoff did this sort of thing.
__________________
As balanced and focused as the next man
Michelle Fivefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 15:19   #17
AJ101
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by square leg umpire View Post
I doubt if that sort of thing is tolerated in the West Indies set up either. Red herring.
Since the start of the T20 leagues the WI worrying about a player turning up 10mins late seems rather petty when half of their players choose not to turn up at all.

No idea what's going on with Archer, I'm a big fan but as someone else said Root has captained him poorly on the field (as he has done with pretty much all his bowlers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
I’d bet Flintoff did this sort of thing.
If he hadn't stolen the bus during the night.
AJ101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 18:25   #18
square leg umpire
Legendary
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: yorkshire
Team(s): yorkshire
Posts: 9,826
Someone remembered the old days when Dennis Compton used to turn up 5 minutes before the start of play wearing evening dress from the night before.
square leg umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 19:49   #19
luckyluke
Established International
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
I don't know where the rumours of his lack of punctuality have come from, not heard them myself. Assuming what you say is true (either the rumours exist and/or Archer is tardy), I'd argue that England has too long a history of demanding a narrow set of behaviour as being part of a team, often to the detriment of more maverick players or those who don't originate from a stereotypical middle class English background. The only non-negotiable should be that when players go out on the field they play to the best of their ability in order to try and win. Everything up that point should be negotiated, whether at the team level or individual.

Is Archer turning up late because he's lazing around or because he believes he should prepare in other ways? Is he a bit disenfranchised because of how he was used in NZ or down because he's injured and can't play? Either way Root should do a better job in interviews and stop making thinly veiled insinuations about his attitude.



I think you miss my point. If the English management wanted to put out rumours to discredit Archer, using stereotypical tropes about West Indians is a good way of ensuring they get unquestioning forwarding on in the media.

As a final point, Archer has not made any comment, critical or otherwise, about how he's getting on in the England camp, but somewhere someone is providing a steady drip of negativity about him.
Agree 100%.
__________________
Most heartless decision:

In a women's league match in Denmark, a heavily pregnant woman arrived at the crease, and asked for a runner. Her request was denied, on the grounds that her incapacity had not occured during the course of the match.
luckyluke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 20:31   #20
Prince of Denmark
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bermondsey
Team(s): Surrey CCC, Dulwich Hamlet FC, England
Age: 54
Posts: 2,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
I also agree that at times he has hardly been used correctly with the long spells and clocking up the number of overs that is going to diminish his ability to bowl flat out quick. Now it appears he's failed a fitness test for the closing match of the series.
This just seems like basic common sense. At Surrey Morne Morkel never bowls spells of more than 4 or 5 overs and hasn't missed a Championship match since his debut in May 2018, yet he arrived with a reputation as prone to niggling injuries in the autumn of his career. Rory Burns knows how to captain a strike bowler. It looks like Root is a bit clueless.
Prince of Denmark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:05.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Cricket247.org