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Old 23rd January 2010, 19:22   #301
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Selectors are, apparently, not very impressed with Rashid's ability to learn and feel they have brought him in way too early.
It would be helpful if they let him play cricket every now and then. They've treated him shockingly imo
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Old 23rd January 2010, 23:43   #302
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So? Plunkett averaged 38.63 last summer, against Broad 38.20 and Swann 35.20. But Plunkett played county cricket, where Broad and Swann played Tests, so I don't see what that adds to your argument. On the other hand, both Swann and Broad average over 30 in Tests, where Plunkett averages 11. Until Plunkett shows he can bat well in Tests as well, he should bat below Swann and Broad.

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Variety is important, but you can have variety in a 4 man RFM attack. Variety is as much to do with height, bounce, trajectory, bowling from wide of the crease, hitting the seam, swinging it conventionally and reversing it, outswinger and inswinger etc as it is to do with whether someone is a left-armer or a spinner. Personally, I'd be looking for someone with a little extra pace and bounce rather than a left-armer.

It's also worth noting that the second spinner in the party is another off-spinner.
I don't see Plunkett as a bowler who adds something to the attack that Anderson, Broad and Onions not offer already.
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Old 24th January 2010, 00:51   #303
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I don't see Plunkett as a bowler who adds something to the attack that Anderson, Broad and Onions not offer already.
The only thing he has that the others don't is a drink/driving conviction. Probably of no use on the cricket field.
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Old 24th January 2010, 00:53   #304
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That was a pretty dumb bit of selection, hard to see any coherent reason for not continuing with Rashid which would have given Cook a selection option rather than cover.
Without having seen Rashid bowl it's impossible to say, isn't it? He could even have lost his action, or some such and be totally unpickable.
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Old 24th January 2010, 03:47   #305
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So? Plunkett averaged 38.63 last summer, against Broad 38.20 and Swann 35.20. But Plunkett played county cricket, where Broad and Swann played Tests, so I don't see what that adds to your argument. On the other hand, both Swann and Broad average over 30 in Tests, where Plunkett averages 11. Until Plunkett shows he can bat well in Tests as well, he should bat below Swann and Broad.
You can compare their county championship seasons with the bat instead if you prefer. That actually comes out as the way I suggested they should bat, although the sample sizes are pretty limited.

Plunkett is now a better batsman than he was in 2005/06-2007 (as evidenced by the increases in his domestic batting average for the last couple of seasons), so I'm not sure what his test average from then (when he was 21) tells us about his batting now.

Whilst his batting remains a relative unknown factor at test level, I'd hardly describe it as a travesty if Plunkett batted higher than Swann.

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I don't see Plunkett as a bowler who adds something to the attack that Anderson, Broad and Onions not offer already.
That is a completely different argument though from what you originally said.
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Old 24th January 2010, 11:42   #306
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It would be helpful if they let Rashid play cricket every now and then. They've treated him shockingly imo
But when could they let him play every now and then? If you don't rate someone in your tour party, you can't stick them in the test side against South Africa just to see if they prove you wrong. Chances are that on any tour there will be some players - and it's usually going to be the younger ones on the fringe of selection - who end up carrying the drinks. Unfortunate and probably not great for their development, but it's the nature of touring parties. Has Rashid been treated any differently to Luke Wright? And would you call Wright's treatment shocking, or just a tactical option that wasn't used?
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Old 24th January 2010, 12:15   #307
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But when could they let him play every now and then? If you don't rate someone in your tour party, you can't stick them in the test side against South Africa just to see if they prove you wrong. Chances are that on any tour there will be some players - and it's usually going to be the younger ones on the fringe of selection - who end up carrying the drinks. Unfortunate and probably not great for their development, but it's the nature of touring parties. Has Rashid been treated any differently to Luke Wright? And would you call Wright's treatment shocking, or just a tactical option that wasn't used?
I'm sure it has been suggested that Rashid just didn't look at the races in the nets and that given the lack of preparation time there was no way of that changing. He would have been better off playing club cricket over there with a chance for people to have a check up on him.
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Old 24th January 2010, 16:21   #308
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I'm sure it has been suggested that Rashid just didn't look at the races in the nets and that given the lack of preparation time there was no way of that changing. He would have been better off playing club cricket over there with a chance for people to have a check up on him.
What would have been the reaction had he been released midway through the tour, though? Both in the media and in the player's mind? Perhaps once it had been determined that he wasn't ready, keeping him there wasn't the worst decision. Repeating the mistake on a subsequent tour would be a more serious issue.
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Old 24th January 2010, 16:30   #309
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You can compare their county championship seasons with the bat instead if you prefer. That actually comes out as the way I suggested they should bat, although the sample sizes are pretty limited.

Plunkett is now a better batsman than he was in 2005/06-2007 (as evidenced by the increases in his domestic batting average for the last couple of seasons), so I'm not sure what his test average from then (when he was 21) tells us about his batting now.

Whilst his batting remains a relative unknown factor at test level, I'd hardly describe it as a travesty if Plunkett batted higher than Swann.



That is a completely different argument though from what you originally said.
Chris Read's county batting stats have also improved but that doesn't mean that he's any less likely to be a rabbit at Test level. Plunkett never looked to have the quality of technique or shot that Broad and Swann have.

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But when could they let him play every now and then? If you don't rate someone in your tour party, you can't stick them in the test side against South Africa just to see if they prove you wrong. Chances are that on any tour there will be some players - and it's usually going to be the younger ones on the fringe of selection - who end up carrying the drinks. Unfortunate and probably not great for their development, but it's the nature of touring parties. Has Rashid been treated any differently to Luke Wright? And would you call Wright's treatment shocking, or just a tactical option that wasn't used?
Some good points there, but leg-spin is traditionally very badly managed by the English. They gave him a couple of twenty20 matches and if I recall correctly a couple of ODIs where he got slogged and they seemed to lose all trust in him. They need to be more patient or not use him at all (I'd prefer the first obviously, and if they had to go for the latter then go for Monty rather than another off-spinner as his replacement)
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Old 24th January 2010, 19:14   #310
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Chris Read's county batting stats have also improved but that doesn't mean that he's any less likely to be a rabbit at Test level. Plunkett never looked to have the quality of technique or shot that Broad and Swann have.
Plunkett clearly isn't the sort of rabbit with the bat Read is at international level.

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Some good points there, but leg-spin is traditionally very badly managed by the English. They gave him a couple of twenty20 matches and if I recall correctly a couple of ODIs where he got slogged and they seemed to lose all trust in him. They need to be more patient or not use him at all (I'd prefer the first obviously, and if they had to go for the latter then go for Monty rather than another off-spinner as his replacement)
The same problems potentially apply to Panesar though. It's a matter of how the player has looked on tour and the coaching staff and selectors have a far better idea of that than us. It may well be true that the selectors have made very bad decisions but it might just be the case that they've judged the players available for the reserve spinning slot perfectly. It's essentially impossible to tell the difference unless you've seen the guys in question bowl though.
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Old 24th January 2010, 21:12   #311
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The only thing he has that the others don't is a drink/driving conviction. Probably of no use on the cricket field.
Nice one!! I wonder if that would preclude him from getting a nice VW Tourag if he could get himself back into the team again?
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Old 8th February 2010, 17:27   #312
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http://www.cricinfo.com/england/cont...ry/447325.html

Love the headline. "I feel as English as anybody in England's top four".
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Old 8th February 2010, 18:58   #313
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http://www.cricinfo.com/england/cont...ry/447325.html

Love the headline. "I feel as English as anybody in England's top four".
That was a bit mischievous of you to add the extra words to the headline.
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Old 15th February 2010, 22:42   #314
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All the same I think Kieswetter is exaggerating. I don't know quite how one would quantify it precisely, but instinct tells me that on the whole I feel more English than he does -- and I bet there are many people who feel more English than I do.
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Old 16th February 2010, 11:17   #315
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All the same I think Kieswetter is exaggerating. I don't know quite how one would quantify it precisely, but instinct tells me that on the whole I feel more English than he does -- and I bet there are many people who feel more English than I do.
'How English you feel' a fairly empty concept, meaning different things to different people. Kieswetter is probably only saying it knowing there'll be some looking at him sceptically given his route to qualifying to play for the national team. The only measure is whether he feels comfortable representing England given that he is now qualified. Up to him if he wants to get a three lions tattoo.
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Old 17th February 2010, 13:50   #316
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How does being English feel?
I want to know seriously...I cannot wait for Kieswetter to retire so I can read all about it - after the book has hit the remaindered list of course...
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Old 17th February 2010, 15:25   #317
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How does being English feel?
I want to know seriously...I cannot wait for Kieswetter to retire so I can read all about it - after the book has hit the remaindered list of course...
He should certainly be feeling less South African now that his team held on for the win and didn't choke in the last over.
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Old 17th February 2010, 16:16   #318
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....to return to this threads point- the next England debutante with not be the stylish Kieswetter, although he wont be too far away, as even now he is stalking the jonesqian dreams of Matt (the doomed) Prior.
The next England debutante will be the new saviour of English fast bowling. Over to you AJ.

LATE EDIT- this post may contain irony.
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Old 18th February 2010, 08:25   #319
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Perhaps what we should be doing is not moaning about the number of South Africans in the England team but trying to work out why they are so much better than our home grown players so that we can replicate it!
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Old 18th February 2010, 10:02   #320
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Perhaps what we should be doing is not moaning about the number of South Africans in the England team but trying to work out why they are so much better than our home grown players so that we can replicate it!
Not just the Saffers, the Aussies who can't get anywhere near their national team still come to England and regularly top bowling and batting averages.

Interestingly though this past season seems to have less overseas players at the top than in the few seasons before that, though still 7 of the top 9 batting averages in the CC Div 1 came from players not born in England, only one of which is a regularly international (Chanderpaul).
At least the bowling averages are generally topped by English born players.
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