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Old 30th December 2015, 15:50   #781
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Woakes has a sensational win ratio doesn't he? On draw when Aussies ran away otherwise he has won every test he has played.
Bresnan (pre-injury) has a similar record and was indeed similarly unloved.

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Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
I love the point made that woakes could have a role of keeping an end quiet. We are so set in our ways of thinking that people can't compute using bowlers in different ways. Having five bowlers means we have options.
I'm not even sure what that comment is supposed to be pro or anti-Woakes.

As it's you, I'll assume pro-Woakes.
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Old 30th December 2015, 15:51   #782
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Yup. Keep him fit and we've got an excellent seam / swing attack. Happy days.
Finn's always had a good strike rate but 35 is exceptional. Good luck keeping him and Anderson (never mind the rest) fit together mind you.
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Old 30th December 2015, 15:56   #783
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Kinell, I've seem some weird special pleading on here but GBG with Woakes is something I'd never have anticipated.
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Old 30th December 2015, 16:02   #784
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I think it's quite an interesting discussion about Woakes going on. I'm not entirely with gbg around the utility of economy, although his points are fair and I can't claim to have seen every ball Woakes has bowled in test cricket but from what I have seen, I think his stats, based on a small number of games, are distorting his obvious merits. Fine, it's perfectly possible that his excellent (average 25) first class record won't translate to tests, because there's less opportunity to swing and seam the ball; better tracks and better batsmen. Most county bowlers, even ones good enough to go on to play tests and do well in them, don't, however, return such good stats so he's clearly got something about him. He's also been a victim of some really poor fielding, which makes a big difference to the stats in a fledgling career. Were Anderson and Broad destroying test batting line ups at similar points in their careers? Could either of them claim anything like Woakes' batting as a second skill? The guy averages more than 11 runs more with bat than ball in first class cricket!

Wonder whether kys has drops stats for Woakes but if it's 3 and had they been taken, he'd be averaging mid 30s with the ball and mid 20s with the bat. Is that special pleading? Possibly it is but I think it illustrates an important point.
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Old 30th December 2015, 16:07   #785
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Thanks for stats that show Moeen is a better fourth innings bowler than Swann. Some like to judge him on day two green top figures but some people are ignorant.
You cannot draw that conclusion accurately. When Moeen has bowled at Tendulkar, Ponting, Kallis et al we can start talking about relevant comparisons. Moeen is the best we have, I'm coming around to that conclusion, but he's incredibly fortunate to be bowling in a period when the playing of spin bowling is on the decline. There are no truly great Test batsmen at this time, though de Villiers' figures and those of a few others may suggest otherwise. These are batsmen taking advantage of cannon fodder in flat decks rather than gaining good averages against truly magnificent bowlers like Donald, McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh, Pollock, Muralichuckalot, Warne and Kumble. Few of them have learned how to play spin properly, they just know how to smack it around the ground in T20s so when they have to play Tests they struggle, hence the relative success of Herath, Lyon and even Moeen.
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Old 30th December 2015, 16:09   #786
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Remember that one person strongly anti woakes once made relations with a cow because of his views on joe denley being the guy to break English batting records

Woakes had lots of chances missed in the India series iirc. That drop by Jonny b could have helped him find confidence. Oh well. He is clearly the one who should miss out for Jimmy.
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Old 30th December 2015, 16:17   #787
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You cannot draw that conclusion accurately. When Moeen has bowled at Tendulkar, Ponting, Kallis et al we can start talking about relevant comparisons. Moeen is the best we have, I'm coming around to that conclusion, but he's incredibly fortunate to be bowling in a period when the playing of spin bowling is on the decline. There are no truly great Test batsmen at this time, though de Villiers' figures and those of a few others may suggest otherwise. These are batsmen taking advantage of cannon fodder in flat decks rather than gaining good averages against truly magnificent bowlers like Donald, McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh, Pollock, Muralichuckalot, Warne and Kumble. Few of them have learned how to play spin properly, they just know how to smack it around the ground in T20s so when they have to play Tests they struggle, hence the relative success of Herath, Lyon and even Moeen.
You could of course look at this a different way. Those bowlers you list were lucky not to play in the era of t20 so batsmen allowed bowlers to dictate the game. Shots like the reverse sweep and slog sweep were non existent. Batsman now try to get after spin bowlers where previously they were allowed to bowl. It is impossible to compare eras so you compare to other bowlers around at the time.
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Old 30th December 2015, 17:04   #788
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I think it's quite an interesting discussion about Woakes going on. I'm not entirely with gbg around the utility of economy, although his points are fair and I can't claim to have seen every ball Woakes has bowled in test cricket but from what I have seen, I think his stats, based on a small number of games, are distorting his obvious merits. Fine, it's perfectly possible that his excellent (average 25) first class record won't translate to tests, because there's less opportunity to swing and seam the ball; better tracks and better batsmen. Most county bowlers, even ones good enough to go on to play tests and do well in them, don't, however, return such good stats so he's clearly got something about him. He's also been a victim of some really poor fielding, which makes a big difference to the stats in a fledgling career. Were Anderson and Broad destroying test batting line ups at similar points in their careers? Could either of them claim anything like Woakes' batting as a second skill? The guy averages more than 11 runs more with bat than ball in first class cricket!

Wonder whether kys has drops stats for Woakes but if it's 3 and had they been taken, he'd be averaging mid 30s with the ball and mid 20s with the bat. Is that special pleading? Possibly it is but I think it illustrates an important point.
He's obviously got talent but there is little I've seen that shows me he will get wickets with a Kookaburra regularly, though I'm happy to be proved wrong. The comparison with Bresnan is a good one as they could be very similar in their roles. Tim managed to bend his back and get his pace up, also developing reverse swing along the way, but I think that extra effort in the end did for him. Woakes has added a few extra mph which is good, but I wonder whether in the long term it may have similar effects on his body, and whether he may be better off working on becoming a swing bowler to be Jimmy's replacement. As such, it is more the fact that GBG is picking stats out to defend some non-performance like people did with the likes of Bell that I find amusing, especially as I thought he took a poor view in general of county medium-fast men making it in international cricket.
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Old 30th December 2015, 17:26   #789
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He's obviously got talent but there is little I've seen that shows me he will get wickets with a Kookaburra regularly, though I'm happy to be proved wrong. The comparison with Bresnan is a good one as they could be very similar in their roles. Tim managed to bend his back and get his pace up, also developing reverse swing along the way, but I think that extra effort in the end did for him. Woakes has added a few extra mph which is good, but I wonder whether in the long term it may have similar effects on his body, and whether he may be better off working on becoming a swing bowler to be Jimmy's replacement. As such, it is more the fact that GBG is picking stats out to defend some non-performance like people did with the likes of Bell that I find amusing, especially as I thought he took a poor view in general of county medium-fast men making it in international cricket.
Well I'll give you that I'm not wild on the economy utility argument as the main one for Woakes, although the point isn't an unreasonable one. I more think he's suffered disproportionately many dropped catches, like Broad, so doesn't have the average he probably deserves, even recognising that all bowlers will have chances shelled.
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Old 30th December 2015, 17:53   #790
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Presume Woakes will be out with Anderson back next test making the side even stronger. Could stay on top of this series from beginning to end.
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Old 30th December 2015, 18:13   #791
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Hashim Amla (capt), AB de Villiers, Kyle Abbott, Temba Bavuma, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Faf du Plessis, Dean Elgar, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Dane Piedt, Kagiso Rabada, Rilee Rossouw, Dale Steyn, Stiaan van Zyl. (Hardus Viljoen also on stand-by)

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Old 30th December 2015, 18:46   #792
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It won't happen for the next test but I would bring in Buttler for Hales, with everybody moving up a rung, giving us a batting line up of Cook, Compo, Taylor, Root, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes, Ali, Broad.

Big improvement.
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Old 30th December 2015, 18:49   #793
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I'd be temped to have Finn and Anderson bat too, cabinboy.
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Old 30th December 2015, 19:23   #794
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I love the point made that woakes could have a role of keeping an end quiet. We are so set in our ways of thinking that people can't compute using bowlers in different ways. Having five bowlers means we have options.
I love that we are so set in our ways on this board that we can turn a victory for england into the most specious use of stats we've seen for quite some time.

I'm quite willing to give Woakes a bit more time, I just think he's a bit of an up-and-down bowler who doesn't look like he'll strike much terror into test batsmen. I'm not sure using him as a bowl dry option really fits with the type of bowler he naturally is, and even if that is to be his lot, he still needs to pick up a few more wickets than he has so far.
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Old 30th December 2015, 19:23   #795
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Finn's always had a good strike rate but 35 is exceptional. Good luck keeping him and Anderson (never mind the rest) fit together mind you.
Finn is right up there with the England greats in terms of strike rate, which seems quite remarkable.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/south-...=1;type=tea m

Better than Trueman, Botham and Willis, and only a touch behind Frank Tyson.
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Old 30th December 2015, 23:16   #796
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Agree strongly with the Woakes and Bresnan comparison. Was never fully convinced with Bresnan throughout his England career. Had to admire his heart and effort though. But as has been alluded to he probably pushed himself a bit too hard and had suffered since.
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Old 30th December 2015, 23:23   #797
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Finn is right up there with the England greats in terms of strike rate, which seems quite remarkable.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/south-...=1;type=tea m

Better than Trueman, Botham and Willis, and only a touch behind Frank Tyson.
Yeah I know. Couple of hundred wickets shy of each of that trio obvs.
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Old 30th December 2015, 23:29   #798
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SA going down in an embarrassing heap.

Not surprising though when you factor in Durban, first test at home and some of the selections. Still think the decision to send England in was odd too.
Everybody seemed to favour fielding first at the start. They say that in Durban you should look up instead of down and there was cloud cover. SA had England 3 down for not many but then it went away from them.
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Old 30th December 2015, 23:36   #799
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Everybody seemed to favour fielding first at the start. They say that in Durban you should look up instead of down and there was cloud cover. SA had England 3 down for not many but then it went away from them.
It was very much the obvious call and that it didn't swing rather surprised most people. As you point out, even without it swinging SA got off to a very good start and could easily have dominated the game from there.
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Old 30th December 2015, 23:40   #800
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It won't happen for the next test but I would bring in Buttler for Hales, with everybody moving up a rung, giving us a batting line up of Cook, Compo, Taylor, Root, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes, Ali, Broad.

Big improvement.
Why? Why move the batting around again? I'm not Hales's biggest fan but he has to have the series, and Compton has done well at 3 on his return to the side.
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