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Old 30th December 2015, 11:28   #721
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Interesting that Compton's still defensive about him being dropped, he hasn't exactly let it go.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:32   #722
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England probably cannot believe how comprehensively they outplayed SA. The thing about Amla is that a few years ago he baulked at the captaincy. Maybe he had pressure placed upon him.

de Kock surely would only be played to relieve AB of the gloves because RR was the reserve batsman. Rabada should probably replace Abbott even if Steyn is fit. One wonders though if they can risk Steyn these days because he can't seem to get through a match anymore. England rested Anderson and it paid off.

Compton's steadiness was a big factor for England. SA's batting never looked likely to threaten but they needed to put up scores themselves.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:33   #723
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Duminy or Bavuma, hard to call. Looking at that lineup though, I can see the selectors thinking the batting is solidified so bring Morris in to help with the bowling, and shift QdK up It's illogical, but the kind of stupidity they like.

Btw, that should be a good middle order, if they weren't all out of form.
De kock has made his runs in the middle-order just as Van Zyl did. So if they promote him to open they're as foolhardy as everyone seems to think.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:37   #724
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De kock has made his runs in the middle-order just as Van Zyl did. So if they promote him to open they're as foolhardy as everyone seems to think.
I thought maybe dropping Duminy too rather than an opener, but who knows where their stupidity ends.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:37   #725
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It's hard to judge a player when he's still finding his feet in the side, and hasn't had a long enough run. I remember saying similar things about Chris Jordan after the first Test on the last Windies tour - by the end of it you could reach the conclusion that he lacked the penetration required at Test level, but you needed to give him that long to see.

Woakes hasn't had that yet, and it's a similar point I would make about the judgements on Compton. He's only just coming back into the side, so you take the runs he's made as a big plus, and wait and see on how he plays tempo-wise.
Thing is I guess he'll make way again if Jimmy is fit and won't get the time to find his feet for a while. Perhaps this is why they keep him in the ODI side despite it apparently being his weaker format.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:37   #726
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Interesting that Compton's still defensive about him being dropped, he hasn't exactly let it go.
Sounds to me like it was a massive failure of management coupled with a massive abuse of power by said management.
Can't expect that not to leave deep scars.
Credit to the guy for still wanting to play for England.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:40   #727
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Well done to England, they have heaped some misery on the South Africans with that performance. I'm not sure where the Saffers will turn next, but I suggest going to the basics in picking the 6 best batsmen, a keeper and the best 4 bowlers available within the quota. There seems to be too much fudging in this XI. I think De Kock, Roussow and Rabada would improve them both now and for the long term.

As for England, a great team performance and it was the Taylor-Compton partnership that put them in the position to win. Well done to Ali for delivering and Broad has turned into the bowler we all want him to be. I'd like to see Footitt come in for Woakes if Jimmy isn't fit but I doubt it will happen.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:40   #728
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de Kock surely would only be played to relieve AB of the gloves because RR was the reserve batsman. Rabada should probably replace Abbott even if Steyn is fit. One wonders though if they can risk Steyn these days because he can't seem to get through a match anymore. England rested Anderson and it paid off.
I thought the squad had been selected for 2 tests, so bringing people in means they definitely play, or are a replacement. Amla suggested Steyn will not play, rather than is a doubt, so Morris is a replacement. QdK could only have been brought in to play.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:41   #729
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I thought maybe dropping Duminy too rather than an opener, but who knows where their stupidity ends.
I don't think they'll do that but you probably know better than me. If it is a choice between Bavuma and Duminy the younger man probably deserves a chance, especially given Duminy's terrible form in the last 12 months. However, I think his inconsequential twenty odd not out might sway the selectors.

One other thing about SA selection - I think Amla needs to move himself back down to 4. I know Faf is in poor form but he needs to take up the challenge at 3.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:44   #730
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Moeen MoM? Bizarre. Doubt a bowler has ever gained that award having taken so few top order wickets. Completely undeserved. Compton was far more deserving. Even Taylor. Or Edgar.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:48   #731
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Moeen MoM? Bizarre. Doubt a bowler has ever gained that award having taken so few top order wickets. Completely undeserved. Compton was far more deserving. Even Taylor. Or Edgar.
Probably a reasonable point given that Broad and Finn also took important wickets. In any case the SA batting looked shaky before, let alone after. The question was who would stand up with the bat for England and put the result beyond doubt. Compton was the man.

One other thing about Amla, regardless of the quality of his team, he needs to inject more enthusiasm into proceedings. Under Smith SA invariably bounced after losses. Smith was always adamant this would happen and there appeared to be conviction in the squad. It's hard to know whether SA would be super competitive against even the Windies atm.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:53   #732
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I don't think they'll do that but you probably know better than me.
That was more in response to the idea of QdK come in is opener. I doubt that.

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If it is a choice between Bavuma and Duminy the younger man probably deserves a chance, especially given Duminy's terrible form in the last 12 months. However, I think his inconsequential twenty odd not out might sway the selectors.
That's what I was thinking. Hard to tell now.

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One other thing about SA selection - I think Amla needs to move himself back down to 4. I know Faf is in poor form but he needs to take up the challenge at 3.
Neither have scored in either position this year. If he's captain though,maybe 4 gives him a bit of time to relax.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:57   #733
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Probably a reasonable point given that Broad and Finn also took important wickets. In any case the SA batting looked shaky before, let alone after. The question was who would stand up with the bat for England and put the result beyond doubt. Compton was the man.

One other thing about Amla, regardless of the quality of his team, he needs to inject more enthusiasm into proceedings. Under Smith SA invariably bounced after losses. Smith was always adamant this would happen and there appeared to be conviction in the squad. It's hard to know whether SA would be super competitive against even the Windies atm.
They humped the West Indies at the start of the year. Everyone took loads or runs and wickets and looked great. Kinda like Aus just did. How did Aus do against England?

Sorry, carry on. I actually agree about the rest, especially regarding your man Smith's ability to get the team going.
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Old 30th December 2015, 11:59   #734
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Didn't amla debut in 2004 and look completely clueless? Steyn too, without the clueless bit so much.
He did, although he'd played a test or two before England toured. AB debuted against England as opener that tour and got a 90 and a ton in the final test (the one where Kallis crawled along preventing a timely declaration).
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Old 30th December 2015, 12:05   #735
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I'd like to see Footitt come in for Woakes if Jimmy isn't fit but I doubt it will happen.
I think the key to England setting up the win was their bowling discipline by the quicks in the first innings and the lack of scoring opportunities present to the Saffers. Bowling discipline I don't think is Footitt's strongest card - wicket-taking yes, tight lines? Not so much.
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Old 30th December 2015, 12:12   #736
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I would have given MOM to Broad, think it had to be a bowler and his first innings spells were world class, knocked over the top order and set up the platform to win.
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Old 30th December 2015, 12:25   #737
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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Interesting that Compton's still defensive about him being dropped, he hasn't exactly let it go.
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Sounds to me like it was a massive failure of management coupled with a massive abuse of power by said management.
Can't expect that not to leave deep scars.
Credit to the guy for still wanting to play for England.
He should consider himself lucky to have been so critical then, and still now, regardless of what management did right or wrong he should STFU and get on with it.

Actions speak louder than words yet he's still mouthing off..............

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Moeen MoM? Bizarre. Doubt a bowler has ever gained that award having taken so few top order wickets. Completely undeserved. Compton was far more deserving. Even Taylor. Or Edgar.
I agree. I'm trying a MOTM points system just out of interest, 2 points for a major/key contribution that is either a big/decisive score, or key/top order wickets, and 1 point for supporting wickets.

That puts 18 efforts on the board, 7 Englanders and 4 saffers :

3 Compton, Taylor, Bairstow, Elgar, Broad
2 Ali, Root, Finn, Steyn, De Villiers, Piedt

Compton and Taylor's batting, and in partnership, was key to England reaching 300 which paved the way for taking the important 1st innings lead for which they get 2 each, as does Steyn for his bowling efforts.

Bairstow and Broad get a point apiece for their batting, Bairstow making 41 when England were 196/5 and Broad helping add (50) extra runs.

Elgar obviously carrying his bat scored over half the saffer runs, De Villiers gets a point for making 49. Broad gets 2 points for taking out the only 3 of the top 4 to be dismissed, might seem a tad harsh but Ali gets just 1 point for his 4/69 as only 1 was of the top six and 3 were taken after the saffers were already 5 down.

Compton and Taylor get a point apiece for their 2nd innings efforts, Root and Bairstow 2 apiece although England were comfortable before Bairstow even came to the crease - but 129 runs were added whilst he was at the crease giving the cushion England ended up with. Piedt has to get 2 points for his 5wi, especially given 4 were top six - he took more top order than Ali, just not quite more wickets.

And last up Finn gets 2 for his 3 top order wickets, Moen a point for his efforts, whilst Elgar and De Villiers showed about as much resistance as was shown - could argue a point for Van Zyl and Duminy, although Duminy was left stranded thanks to the consequences of playing the nightwatchman (shifts capable batsmen down the order and rarely achieves a lot)




Personally I'd have given it to Compton, he occupied the crease whilst 244 of England's 303 runs were added 1st innings, that's more than 'carry my bat' Elgar did, and stayed their whilst 106 runs were added 2nd innings, 350 runs scored whilst he batted which is more than half England's runs.

Besides, England bowled South Africa for around 200 or less both innings, the main instigaters were different in each innings (Broad and Finn) whilst neither side scored over 350 so I think batting contributions have to be considered over a bowler unless one bowler stood out - which they didn't

Wickets taken

7 Ali
6 Finn, Piedt
5 Broad, Morkel
4 Steyn
3 Van Zyl
2 Abbott
1 Stokes, Woakes

Ali edging in front, but I think 8+ would need to have been taken by a bowler or say taken out 3 of the top 4-5 wickets both innings or something. Had he scored a few more runs to boot maybe I could go with Ali, but 0 and 16 and supporting rather than leading wickets I'd have plumped for a batsman
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Old 30th December 2015, 12:31   #738
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How many from this current side would get in either of those two teams? The 04/05 side had boeta diepenaar (whose name I never could spell) so Amla could replace him. Possibly morkel to bowl.

Similar with the 09/10 side.
As mentioned, Steyn, Amla and AB all did despite not being nearly the players they've subsequently become. Morkel would have been in too, yes.

For England, Root for Butch / Key, Broad for Harmison (who was on the slide by then, although went in to the series as a monster of a bowler) or Jones (who only reached the level of exceptional performance we remember him for in the 2005 Ashes series). Not sure how you get Cook in, possibly at 3 as hard to say he's better than Tres, let alone new to the side scoring tons all over the place Strauss, although then where does Root fit in? Would Anderson displace Hoggard? Ali for Giles?

Don't think it's just misty eyed reminiscence making me think that those two sides leave the current two looking very feeble by comparison. While you could argue that the career records of many of the England players weren't amazing, most of the line up were in prime form around then:

Tres
Strauss
Butcher (Key replaced him after injury and neither ever played again after that tour)
Vaughan
Thorpe
Flintoff
Jones
Giles
Hoggard
Jones
Harmison
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Old 30th December 2015, 12:42   #739
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It's hard to judge a player when he's still finding his feet in the side, and hasn't had a long enough run. I remember saying similar things about Chris Jordan after the first Test on the last Windies tour - by the end of it you could reach the conclusion that he lacked the penetration required at Test level, but you needed to give him that long to see.

Woakes hasn't had that yet, and it's a similar point I would make about the judgements on Compton. He's only just coming back into the side, so you take the runs he's made as a big plus, and wait and see on how he plays tempo-wise.
He's done very little in terms of wicket taking in tests so far but I really do think he's bowled better than his figures and he's been a stand out county bowler for years. He's also provided some useful innings although never really had the chance to build a proper score. He's making way for Anderson but may get a go later in the series given how condensed it is. I'm not at all worried that he's a poor option. I think he'll do well.
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Old 30th December 2015, 12:43   #740
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I agree. I'm trying a MOTM points system just out of interest, 2 points for a major/key contribution that is either a big/decisive score, or key/top order wickets, and 1 point for supporting wickets.
Just out of curiosity, if we have a lower-resistance after the top and middle order has been dismissed cheaply and if a bowler provides the crucial breakthroughs, do they get 2 points or 1?
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