Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > England
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12th February 2016, 09:29   #1
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,752
The English spin conundrum thread

As this was topic was discussed on the current ODI series thread I genuinely think it is a topic for the England forum. Where do we go for a specialist spinner? Moeen was picked as he was an improving off spinner who was actually a batsman. However is it wrong to suggest that he really hasn't improved enough as a spinner in his two years in the side? I don't think so and it is very disappointing that he has often bowled high full tosses and long hops in a manner not far removed from club cricket. That said, at this moment in time there isn't that realistic an option to replace him and he works quite well as an 'impact' bowler in that he often takes wickets when he bowls shorter spells and still has not that bad a strike rate in test cricket.

When we had a little chuckle with Sans on the ODI forum over the batting capabilities of bowlers, he actually made a reasonably pertinent point that England may be a little worried about swapping a specialist spinner in for Moeen even if one was around because they might be slightly concerned with a tail of Broad, Finn and Anderson starting from no.8. Much is spoken of Zafar Ansari but he is essentially a batsman who bowls defensive spin that I doubt would be particularly threatening and where would he bat? I really think that England need to bat Stokes at 6 and that was a bit of a hobby horse of mine (I only have the odd one unlike quite a few of the rest of you!) when he was mucked about before Moores got the boot.

Anyway take it away folks.
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 09:52   #2
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,059
I'm not sure it's fair to class Ansari as a defensive spinner. He has a slightly better strike rate than Moeen in first class cricket. He is still finding his way though. If England see enough in him to call him up, then they should do so sooner rather than later this summer. Conversely, like Kerrigan he might be a bully of div2 batsmen but unable to step up to higher tiers.

If he's picked as a spinner, he bats at eight. If he's picked as an opener, Mo stays in the side.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 09:55   #3
cabinboy
Posting God
 
cabinboy's Avatar
Do Gooder
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,186
Anderson probably only has six months of international cricket left in him and Broad can bat so the tail really shouldn't be an issue.

Ansari won't be the answer. Surely Kerrigan would be first choice On any decent selectors list. Albeit our selectors include the muppet, Whittaker.
cabinboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 10:04   #4
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
I'm not sure it's fair to class Ansari as a defensive spinner. He has a slightly better strike rate than Moeen in first class cricket. He is still finding his way though. If England see enough in him to call him up, then they should do so sooner rather than later this summer. Conversely, like Kerrigan he might be a bully of div2 batsmen but unable to step up to higher tiers.

If he's picked as a spinner, he bats at eight. If he's picked as an opener, Mo stays in the side.
I've watched a reasonable amount of him in cc cricket and he's never struck me as being particularly artful. Accurate yes, but I just can't see him being that viable option particularly this year given our opposition. That said if he does have a good county championship he may well get on the tour to India who are at the moment, the least proficient players of spin out of all the Asian test playing nations.
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 10:56   #5
1000yardstare
Posting Goddess
 
1000yardstare's Avatar
JA 810 Wagner 118 TCurran 15 SCurran 0
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 20,405
I see Aaron Lilley overtaking Kerrigan soon in the Lancs side.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/conte...ry/937369.html
1000yardstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 11:02   #6
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,073
I think in the first instance it's about the role the spinner plays. In my mind there's no doubt at all that Moeen was picked not because he was likely to be the best available spinner, but because he was good enough considering he could bat. I think that that decision was made with Stokes and Woakes in mind -- that is, it looked as if going forward we would be able to have a top six batsman who also bowled good seam. And so we do. Given that, then, what happens at nos 8--11? There's four bowling spots there, and if three of them go to seamers then there are four seamers in the team and realistically, on most of the pitches we play on, the spinner's not going to need to bowl much. So he's picked largely for his batting. That's the situation we've got, and it's revealing that the other spinners in the England mix now are Rashid, Patel, Dawson -- some of whom are pretty ropey with the ball, but all of whom are decent or more than decent with the bat. So I think that in the current side, the only way Moeen can really lose his place is to someone who's a bit better with the ball and at least almost as good as him with the bat. The situations in which having a marginally better spinner than Moeen would make a significant difference are considered to be quite few and far between. Because we have four seamers, we simply don't need a spinner to play the role that Swann used to. If Swann were still around, I don't think he'd get into the side over Moeen. And we'll only really need a good spinner again when we don't have a seam-bowling all-rounder in the top six. So I think that for the next 10 years or so, we're unlikely to see any good spinners playing regularly for England except by happy accident, and the question of who the best available spinner is will be largely irrelevant. The exception may be the odd winter tour -- but judging by the recent UAE tour, the tendency may be to insist on retaining the four seamers anyway, which means that there'll only be room for an extra spinner if we drop a batsman (and hence that extra spinner will have to be largely a batsman).
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 11:48   #7
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 18,738
Of course Swann would still get in the side over moeen!

Any spin bowler coming in would need to be significantly better than Ali with the ball or a decent batsmen. I don't see a standout spinner in cc so picking a specialist for the sake of it is daft because you would lose mo's runs. Rashid looked a potential option but is nearly always out bowled by mo.

We lack a proper spin option so take the best all round package.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 12:28   #8
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Of course Swann would still get in the side over moeen!

Any spin bowler coming in would need to be significantly better than Ali with the ball or a decent batsmen. I don't see a standout spinner in cc so picking a specialist for the sake of it is daft because you would lose mo's runs. Rashid looked a potential option but is nearly always out bowled by mo.

We lack a proper spin option so take the best all round package.
I don't think that's right. I think we've now moved away from the 3 seamers and one spinner model, to the 4 seamers and one batsman who bowls a bit of spin model. This is what GBG had been suggesting for years, and it's what Fletcher leaned towards. It's a team-structural theory that's favoured (by the people who favour it) irrespective of the personnel available. In terms of its relation to the available personnel it's a bit like the keeper-who-bats theory, whereby you pick the best-batting keeper irrespective of whether he's really that good with the bat, and irrespective of how good the best available keeper is with the gloves. The decision has already been made that the chances of finding a specialist good enough to stop you thinking about the batting are so slim that it's not even worth trying. I think this theory of the spin bowler's role has come to England through Newell, who'd introduced it at Notts already; and so Patel plays as the Notts spinner by default except in exceptional circumstances, even though it would be easy -- as easy as any of the pies that Patel eats and/or bowls -- for Notts to find a better spinner than he. So I think it's simply misguided to suppose that Moeen's selection has much to do with how good the other available spinners are at bowling. He's selected because he's a batsman, and if any other spinners are going to be considered in his place then they too have to be batsmen. More generally I think this policy has allowed Notts to be reliably quite good, but never very good indeed. And I think it will have that effect upon England too. They will do well, but they'll only become the best in the world if everyone else is pretty ropey.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 13:53   #9
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,059
I agree with Sans' last few sentences. Notts may well have won more trophies had they had a genuine spinner in the side. In general, the batting and bowling has been good enough.

However, as has been pointed out a few times, there really isn't a standout in county cricket demanding attention. The "ropey" spinner Adil Rashid is probably the best, regardless of his batting ability. Giles was head and shoulders above all the other English spinners during his career too. Blame county cricket and it's conservative groundsmen and captains perhaps, or maybe just our weather. It's a cultural approach to spin bowling that has afflicted the English game for many years, not since May 2014.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 16:16   #10
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
Posting God
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 27,317
In limited overs it doesn't have to be a spinner - a medium pace option to take the pace off the ball can work just as well on slow pitches.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
geoff_boycotts_grandmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2016, 16:22   #11
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
As this was topic was discussed on the current ODI series thread I genuinely think it is a topic for the England forum. Where do we go for a specialist spinner? Moeen was picked as he was an improving off spinner who was actually a batsman. However is it wrong to suggest that he really hasn't improved enough as a spinner in his two years in the side? I don't think so and it is very disappointing that he has often bowled high full tosses and long hops in a manner not far removed from club cricket. That said, at this moment in time there isn't that realistic an option to replace him and he works quite well as an 'impact' bowler in that he often takes wickets when he bowls shorter spells and still has not that bad a strike rate in test cricket.

When we had a little chuckle with Sans on the ODI forum over the batting capabilities of bowlers, he actually made a reasonably pertinent point that England may be a little worried about swapping a specialist spinner in for Moeen even if one was around because they might be slightly concerned with a tail of Broad, Finn and Anderson starting from no.8. Much is spoken of Zafar Ansari but he is essentially a batsman who bowls defensive spin that I doubt would be particularly threatening and where would he bat? I really think that England need to bat Stokes at 6 and that was a bit of a hobby horse of mine (I only have the odd one unlike quite a few of the rest of you!) when he was mucked about before Moores got the boot.

Anyway take it away folks.
I agree with most of the points. I'm not so sure is a definite plan not to play a specialist spinner as I think in international cricket you are a bit limited by the talent available and have to pick the best balance based on that. I tend to agree that Zafari would appear to be more of an accumulator than a stoke player and therefore not really suited to bat below six and Stokes is clearly most suited to playing that role - although his problem elsewhere is probably more psychological. What might be interesting is if Zafari came through as the best opening bat would we still persist with Ali at 8, or go with an additional batsman, or maybe Rashid as a more attacking spin alternative.

England are in a bit of a strange position currently, at test level there seems to be a lack of spin and batting talent pushing at the door, but there seem to be some decent all rounders pushing for international consideration. Its possible that in a couple of years time Rashid/Ali, Zafari, Stokes and Curran could all be in the side and there a number of others who could make the step up. I don't think we'd have beaten Australia or South Africa without the lower middle order, so it is compensate for the weakness with the first 5.
JRC67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2016, 20:14   #12
CDogg16
Established International
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,000
A lot has been made about players playing in different countries to get more experience, but less has been made about attracting international players to County Cricket. Ali has spoken about how Ajmal helped him develop, so imagine how helpful an Ashwin or Badaree would be if they turned up in County cricket to offer help and advice to the likes of Crane and Briggs.
CDogg16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2016, 20:23   #13
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 18,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDogg16 View Post
A lot has been made about players playing in different countries to get more experience, but less has been made about attracting international players to County Cricket. Ali has spoken about how Ajmal helped him develop, so imagine how helpful an Ashwin or Badaree would be if they turned up in County cricket to offer help and advice to the likes of Crane and Briggs.
I agree to a certain extent but it would also reduce their opportunities. How much can did moeen bowl when Ajmal was in town?
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2016, 20:25   #14
CDogg16
Established International
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
I agree to a certain extent but it would also reduce their opportunities. How much can did moeen bowl when Ajmal was in town?
I think he was very much the second spinner but he's gone on record saying how much it helped him. I suppose the benefit for Ali is that he got in the team as a batsmen and so his place in the team was secure.
CDogg16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2016, 20:34   #15
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 18,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDogg16 View Post
I think he was very much the second spinner but he's gone on record saying how much it helped him. I suppose the benefit for Ali is that he got in the team as a batsmen and so his place in the team was secure.
Yup. So he still played. Would a side play two specialist spin bowlers?
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2016, 21:02   #16
CDogg16
Established International
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Yup. So he still played. Would a side play two specialist spin bowlers?
Unlikely, but maybe a couple of months in the seconds while training with a top class spinner every day would be beneficial in the long run. Borthwick would probably get in the Durham side as a batsman, and Surrey could accommodate another spinner alongside Ansari.
CDogg16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2016, 21:32   #17
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,059
Maybe if counties produced the odd wicket conducive to spin, they could afford to play two spinners, one overseas, one domestic.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2016, 21:37   #18
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
Posting God
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 27,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDogg16 View Post
A lot has been made about players playing in different countries to get more experience, but less has been made about attracting international players to County Cricket. Ali has spoken about how Ajmal helped him develop, so imagine how helpful an Ashwin or Badaree would be if they turned up in County cricket to offer help and advice to the likes of Crane and Briggs.
Possibly, but it's not going to give them experience of playing in Indian conditions and will likely take overs away from them and actually be more useful for the batsmen facing them than the spinner carrying out drinks to them.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
geoff_boycotts_grandmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2016, 21:40   #19
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,073
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDogg16 View Post
... and Surrey could accommodate another spinner alongside Ansari.
The very idea is totally batty.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2016, 13:28   #20
ConfusedMale
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bangalore
Team(s): India
Posts: 2,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Possibly, but it's not going to give them experience of playing in Indian conditions and will likely take overs away from them and actually be more useful for the batsmen facing them than the spinner carrying out drinks to them.
Actually, the way the Indians are batting against spin these days, I don't think you need to know much about bowling spin in Indian conditions.
__________________
A quote is quotable depending on who you are and not what you say
ConfusedMale is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 00:43.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Cricket247.org