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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:29   #701
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
If Bairstow doesnít remain Englandís wicket-keeper Iíll be very cross. Buttler can make it as a specialist batsman and wouldnít be too bothered not to have the gloves when JB comes back.
Bairstow can make it as a specialist batsman as well. If that was KP making demands about what role he had to be used in you'd be shaking with rage at his lack of being a team player doing what is best for the team.

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Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
From the quotes I've seen about Stokes's knee its an injury that comes and goes. It doesn't seem one that gets made worse, its either there when he wakes up or it isn't. I suspect over time he's going to end up just batting. No idea where Woakes is with his fitness. The other option might be to look at giving Leach a run out. Do they drop Rashid when we have Sri Lanka round the corner, which doesn't do much for his confidence, although he may have shot his bolt at test level.

Who do we put at number 3? If they want to bring Pope back you expect him to go in lower. Joe Denly in the frame but averaging under 40 in division 2. Ian Bell having a good season but pushing 37 and in his prime was really better at 5 or 6. Hildreth has had a good season but isn't really a number 3 and Vince has hit some form but is he a test player?
No thank you.

I don't mind resting Rashid and telling him he'll be back for this winter.

We know Bell can't bat at 3. He averaged 35 in test cricket in the top 4.

Maybe Cook?
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:31   #702
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Well played England -- Ali and Curran in particular.

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Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
Big questions for The Oval. For me playing the best team in the world play a team to try and win it.
Big questions;
Burns to open?
Ali at 3?
Rashid to play?
Stokes's fitness?

Interested in Ali's interview, first time he believed he just had to keep on putting the ball in the right spot and the wickets would come. Ali remains keen to bat at 3, although I still see him as a very good 7. I guess at the moment if he can average 30 at 3 and Root plays better at 4 it has to be considered. Having someone whose keen to play there is at least a positive. Maybe as a short-term fix with the winter series coming along.
I agree that we should pick our best available team to win the match. I'd have Burns opening, yes.

No, I wouldn't have Ali at 3. At any point in recent years they could have put Ali at 3 instead of Ballance, instead of Vince, instead of Root. They didn't, though, because they didn't think he was good enough -- and I don't think they think he's good enough now either. After all, he's not suddenly become a better batsman. So as you say, it would be a short-term move designed just to get through this winter without a real no. 3. Perhaps with so many fine all-rounders we don't really have room for a proper no. 3 without dropping someone we wouldn't want to drop, but if that's the case then we should pick the most plausible test match no. 3 from among those all-rounders -- and I think that would be Stokes -- rather than just the chap most likely to say yes if asked.

On Rashid: as stated above, it would be overly hopeful to think that Ali will suddenly become a new kind of player for us, so I think it's better to play him alongside another spinner, especially given that it's the Oval with a spin-friendly winter tour to come. I would understand if they dropped Rashid, perhaps for Leach or some other spinner they would like to pick for the winter tour.

On Stokes's fitness: if he's fit to play as a batsman I think he should play, especially as it often seems to be the case that he is fit to bat but not to bowl much. So I'd be thinking maybe this team:

Burns
Cook
Stokes
Root
Buttler
Curran
Bairstow+
Ali
Leach
Broad
Anderson

If Woakes is fit, he'd probably be a better bet than Cook at the top of the order.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:32   #703
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Originally Posted by ddb View Post
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...-investec-test

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...f-england-2014

I remember these games. Some of us don't have a memory like a sieve. Apart from Lords India have fought which we never saw under Dhoni
How can India treat Ali with some much contempt in India and yet struggle so much with him in England:

2014 19 @ 23
2016 10 @ 64.9
2018 9 @ 12.6

Does he bowl better in England or do the footmarks he was using here rough up a little more than in India. I can understand the problems when the ball seams but why can't the play a relatively ordinary off spinner away from home?
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:32   #704
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Originally Posted by ddb View Post
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...-investec-test

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...f-england-2014

I remember these games. Some of us don't have a memory like a sieve. Apart from Lords India have fought which we never saw under Dhoni
India's squad now is a LOT better than the one in 2014- for one, Varun Aaron and Pankaj Singh aren't bowling for us.

And yet we trail by the same scoreline.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:35   #705
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Yes, Ashwin gave himself 37 overs- including crucial overs with the first AND the second new ball.
Pandya isnít a front line bowler, Ishant was on warnings and Ashwin is a guy youíd legitimately reckon would have a good chance of coming right on a helpful track. Of course it looks obvious in retrospect and even at the time he did look to be overbowling him but I wouldnít call that horrible captaincy.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:36   #706
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Obtuse to suggest that the 3-1 here is same as 2014 but each to their own. Just look at the scorecards above man.

Oh well India back here in 2021 for the same **** again
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:39   #707
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Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
How can India treat Ali with some much contempt in India and yet struggle so much with him in England:

2014 19 @ 23
2016 10 @ 64.9
2018 9 @ 12.6

Does he bowl better in England or do the footmarks he was using here rough up a little more than in India. I can understand the problems when the ball seams but why can't the play a relatively ordinary off spinner away from home?
A lot of it, perhaps most, is that the rest of the attack has been highly effective in England over the two series, completely toothless in India, so batsmen are rarely set and under far more pressure, as opposed to booked in for bed and breakfast.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:44   #708
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Pandya isnít a front line bowler, Ishant was on warnings and Ashwin is a guy youíd legitimately reckon would have a good chance of coming right on a helpful track. Of course it looks obvious in retrospect and even at the time he did look to be overbowling him but I wouldnít call that horrible captaincy.
Ishant Sharma literally came up to Kohli in the 82nd over to ask what his plan was when he delayed taking the new ball to give Ashwin and Pandya two overs. And Ashwin bowled with the new ball.

And that is just the most recent example.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:47   #709
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Obtuse to suggest that the 3-1 here is same as 2014 but each to their own. Just look at the scorecards above man.

Oh well India back here in 2021 for the same **** again
Itís the same scoreline but for sure Indiaís performance this series has been a lot more creditable, against a rather flawed England side on both occasions, funnily enough. The two close games have ended up with England winning by reasonable margins but India odds on at various points, heavily so at times. Overall the dodgy England batting has been bailed out a lot more by the tail over the four games and the bowling has been a bit better too, which has outweighed Indiaís specialist batting being better, essentially in the form of Kohli.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:52   #710
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Obtuse to suggest that the 3-1 here is same as 2014 but each to their own. Just look at the scorecards above man.

Oh well India back here in 2021 for the same **** again
It's not obtuse at all- it's mathematical fact.

I'm not denying at all that there has been more fight this time and a couple of matches have been actually close but as I said, we have a much better squad now and had an actual chance of winning this thing unlike 2014.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:52   #711
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all-round England must be disappointed that target isn't 40+ runs bigger, more if you consider wickets thrown away across both innings.

The target would be the lowest total of the match if reached, well unless they pass 246 with a boundary. India must fancy their chances, maybe Ali will be key and how Root uses him. England would prefer to have 300+ on the board so they can worry less about run scoring and bowl the spinners without fear

Personally I think this target sets India up nicely make or break, go level at 2-2 or lose the series. It's not so many as to make England clear favourites, not so few as to make India clear favourites.

One thing is for sure, if Pujjy or Kohli spend much time at the crease England will be VERY nervous. Rashid and Woakes have got Kohli twice each, Broad, Woakes, Stokes, run out and not out share Pujara's dismissals (and non-dismissal)

Anderson hasn't got either batsman out this series, nor for all the trumpet fanfares did Ali get them 1st innings, basking in the glory of getting five relative non combatants out.
Dreadful, the way Ali only dismisses poor batsmen.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:53   #712
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Can Curran beat moeen’s series where he failed vs the Aussies?

Most runs batting at number 8 or lower in a Test series for England:
293 (avg 36.62) MM Ali v Aus in Eng 2015
251 (avg 50.20) SM Curran v Ind in Eng 2018
250 (avg 41.66) SCJ Broad v Pak in Eng 2010
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:53   #713
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Bairstow can make it as a specialist batsman as well. If that was KP making demands about what role he had to be used in you'd be shaking with rage at his lack of being a team player doing what is best for the team.



No thank you.

I don't mind resting Rashid and telling him he'll be back for this winter.

We know Bell can't bat at 3. He averaged 35 in test cricket in the top 4.

Maybe Cook?
You want Rashid to play for England again rather than leach?
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Old 2nd September 2018, 19:55   #714
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Well played England -- Ali and Curran in particular.

I agree that we should pick our best available team to win the match. I'd have Burns opening, yes.

No, I wouldn't have Ali at 3. At any point in recent years they could have put Ali at 3 instead of Ballance, instead of Vince, instead of Root. They didn't, though, because they didn't think he was good enough -- and I don't think they think he's good enough now either. After all, he's not suddenly become a better batsman. So as you say, it would be a short-term move designed just to get through this winter without a real no. 3. Perhaps with so many fine all-rounders we don't really have room for a proper no. 3 without dropping someone we wouldn't want to drop, but if that's the case then we should pick the most plausible test match no. 3 from among those all-rounders -- and I think that would be Stokes -- rather than just the chap most likely to say yes if asked.

On Rashid: as stated above, it would be overly hopeful to think that Ali will suddenly become a new kind of player for us, so I think it's better to play him alongside another spinner, especially given that it's the Oval with a spin-friendly winter tour to come. I would understand if they dropped Rashid, perhaps for Leach or some other spinner they would like to pick for the winter tour.

On Stokes's fitness: if he's fit to play as a batsman I think he should play, especially as it often seems to be the case that he is fit to bat but not to bowl much. So I'd be thinking maybe this team:

Burns
Cook
Stokes
Root
Buttler
Curran
Bairstow+
Ali
Leach
Broad
Anderson

If Woakes is fit, he'd probably be a better bet than Cook at the top of the order.
Stokes would probably be my shout in this scenario but that still leaves 3 left handers at the top of the order. If you play 2 spinners the other 2 in with a shout;
Virdi but he's another off spinner
Dawson more wickets at a better average than Leach whose just had an odd decent bowling performance this year and is a very fine fielder. Got maligned for not being Leach when he played his 3 tests but 5 @ 33.8 wasn't bad against South Africa and he was the best of the 3 spinners in the final test in India

Woakes to open would be a brave shout but it would break up the left handers. It wouldn't surprise me if Cook calls it a day at The Oval.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 20:12   #715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
How can India treat Ali with some much contempt in India and yet struggle so much with him in England:

2014 19 @ 23
2016 10 @ 64.9
2018 9 @ 12.6

Does he bowl better in England or do the footmarks he was using here rough up a little more than in India. I can understand the problems when the ball seams but why can't the play a relatively ordinary off spinner away from home?
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A lot of it, perhaps most, is that the rest of the attack has been highly effective in England over the two series, completely toothless in India, so batsmen are rarely set and under far more pressure, as opposed to booked in for bed and breakfast.
Different wickets that tend to be slower with lower bounce, as well as a different ball, in India.

Indian spinners that make English batsmen look foolish in the SC struggle in England.

Kumble averages 41, Harbhajan 49, Jadeja 46. Ashwin on face of it has a much better record (average 32), but half his wickets have come in one game and of those four names, only one 5fer across 25 matches played.

In comparison - Saqlain avg 25 (only 1 test), Yasir 40 (but 2fers and a match 10fer), Mushy 32, Herath 45, Warne 22, Lyon 30, Vettori 30, Murali 19(!), Maharaj 30.

Maybe it's just that there's a big enough difference between English and Indian conditions that makes it hard for each team's spinners to translate their skills across?
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Old 2nd September 2018, 20:22   #716
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Different wickets that tend to be slower with lower bounce, as well as a different ball, in India.

Indian spinners that make English batsmen look foolish in the SC struggle in England.

Kumble averages 41, Harbhajan 49, Jadeja 46. Ashwin on face of it has a much better record (average 32), but half his wickets have come in one game and of those four names, only one 5fer across 25 matches played.

In comparison - Saqlain avg 25 (only 1 test), Yasir 40 (but 2fers and a match 10fer), Mushy 32, Herath 45, Warne 22, Lyon 30, Vettori 30, Murali 19(!), Maharaj 30.

Maybe it's just that there's a big enough difference between English and Indian conditions that makes it hard for each team's spinners to translate their skills across?
Subcontinent wrist spinners do well in England, finger spinners, not so much. Ditto in Australia.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 20:29   #717
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Ishant Sharma literally came up to Kohli in the 82nd over to ask what his plan was when he delayed taking the new ball to give Ashwin and Pandya two overs. And Ashwin bowled with the new ball.

And that is just the most recent example.
Ashwin is good with the new ball though. Obviously this hasnít been much of a series for him but I still think it made some sense to give him a decent bowl to come good. He was give too long though, I agree.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 20:31   #718
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Congratulations to England. Their attack has been superior all series - Kohli used the world relentless after the Lord's Test and I think that's most appropriate. India, for all the hype about their pace attack, have had too many spells where they've given away the pressure (not taking anything away from the English middle and lower order). And, again, despite all the talk about a changed attack, an inability to finish off a team after taking early wickets has been a weakness of Indian cricket since time immemorial. None of this is to excuse the batsmen. Apart from the magnificent Kohli, its been almost uniform mediocrity.

Its difficult to see where this Indian team goes from here. 4 years ago there was an excuse about inexperience: that's no longer the case. A generation of players from Kohli, Rahane, Pujara to Ashwin, Ishant, Shami are at what should be their peak. And yet they've lost 2-1 in South Africa and 3-1 in England. I see no reason we won't be speaking about the next generation of players in exactly the same terms in a few years from now.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 20:32   #719
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Ashwin is good with the new ball though. Obviously this hasnít been much of a series for him but I still think it made some sense to give him a decent bowl to come good. He was give too long though, I agree.
He's good with the new ball but certainly the fast bowlers get the first bite of the cherry given the seaming conditions?
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Old 2nd September 2018, 20:33   #720
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Bairstow can make it as a specialist batsman as well. If that was KP making demands about what role he had to be used in you'd be shaking with rage at his lack of being a team player doing what is best for the team.
Iím not sure Bairstow believes he can be a better batsman without the gloves. Is he a better keeper than Buttler? Donít know as I havenít seen enough of Buttler keeping. Nasser thinks Buttler is the better keeper on the grounds that heís less emotional than Bairstow whoís included to want a review every time an appeal is turned down. Heís not alone in that, though.

Of course itís a team game and players have to do whatís best for the team. Weíve seen this in the enforced changes in the slips, Stokes preferring to be able to move around and Root preferring to be able to talk to his bowlers. But the slip catching has improved. And Root preferring to bat 4 not 3. But now heís got his way it seems. What has to be considered is that players doing what they are most comfortable with might in fact be best for the team. If Bairstow as a specialist batsman doesnít perform as well as keeper-batsman, what happens then? How long do they give it? Would he then be dropped despite having formerly performed well with bat and gloves. Itís important to Bairstow and Buttler isnít bothered. I think Buttler can develop into a good specialist test batsman based on these last two games.

I donít recall having any issue with KPís role in the side. I was happy with nis batting position. The only issue would have been ďthe way he playedĒ in an innings requiring batsmen to bat out a session, for example; but thatís not what weíre talking about here.
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