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Old 14th March 2018, 12:56   #301
Jock McTuffnel v3
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What, like Mo?
Did you miss the Ashes ? Or the entire of 2017 where he averaged 27.00 in 12 test matches with no tons ?
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Old 14th March 2018, 13:00   #302
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Dunno what Jimmy is whinging about - the batsmen can play like they want ?

There was some fill-in bowling used at times, but England went 45 overs between actually taking a wicket themselves, and Moeen Ali was treated with some disdain, conceding over four an over. The fact that that period involved a No. 8 without a first-class fifty will raise a few concerns.


"The 23-year-old six foot six Canterbury fast bowler, who was part of the New Zealand Under-19s squad in 2014, missed the start of this season with injury, has a highest first-class score of 40, and is more known for his exploits with the ball. A few around the ground raised an eyebrow when he batted ahead of Scott Kuggeleijn (three first-class centuries) in this side, but he certainly didn't look out of place. He took a particular liking to Wood, with a strike-rate of 163 against him, while Anderson did not take kindly to some of his batting - at one stage the umpire had to step in. His century came from 110 balls when he nudged a single off Moeen. It won't class in his official records, but he can tell the story of this innings for years to come."
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Old 14th March 2018, 14:35   #303
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Don't you think Root should be opening any more?
Root's obviously still one of England's best two openers but I was trying to work from the confines of that XI which already contains two openers (albeit one of them is crap).

Maybe England see Vince as an all-rounder if they gave him more overs than Crane, Livingstone and Root combined.
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Old 14th March 2018, 14:45   #304
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Root's obviously still one of England's best two openers but I was trying to work from the confines of that XI which already contains two openers (albeit one of them is crap).

Maybe England see Vince as an all-rounder if they gave him more overs than Crane, Livingstone and Root combined.
I read that Crane had a back spasm. Stokes might only play as a batsman but

Anderson Broad Woakes Overton Ali would be better than
Anderson Broad Woakes Vince Ali.

Overton to get more runs than Vince as well.
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Old 14th March 2018, 14:51   #305
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I don't necessarily believe his figures on test debut should be held against him but his dire returns on the CC last summer and on tour for the Lions in the West Indies should.

In which case Crane should be nowhere near the test squad.
I don't disagree. But whether the other spinner in the squad were Crane, Leach, Rashid, or whoever, he'd not be in line to play a test match on this tour, and so it would be more sensible to give Malan match bowling practice than him.

Given that England's policy is not to play any spinner other than Ali unless they unfortunately really need to, it doesn't really matter who they pick to carry the drinks in the alleged role of second spinner. They don't pick their first spinner on bowling merit, so it would be strange -- and potentially embarrassing -- if they picked their second spinner on merit. When Crane was picked in the Ashes squad lots of eyebrows were raised but no one expected him to play a match, and nor would they have expected Rashid or Leach to play a match had one of them been picked instead of him. Crane only played at Sydney because Moeen had shown all the signs of being totally broken, and England didn't want to go into that match on a flat and dry pitch with Malan as possibly their best spinner. As it happened, Moeen bowled much much better in that match than anyone who'd watched him in the previous matches of the series would have expected. But it was all academic in any case because England were never going to score enough runs to compete.
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Old 14th March 2018, 16:58   #306
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I read that Crane had a back spasm.
Not sure death would be enough for the Crane bashers on here to excuse his lack of wickets.

As predicted selection will be as if the Ashes never happened.
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Old 14th March 2018, 17:32   #307
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Not sure death would be enough for the Crane bashers on here to excuse his lack of wickets.
I'm glad you are leading the charge to stand up for maligned spinners Jock, although saying he lacks wickets is a strange starting point.
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Old 14th March 2018, 17:56   #308
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I'm glad you are leading the charge to stand up for maligned spinners Jock, although saying he lacks wickets is a strange starting point.
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Old 14th March 2018, 18:02   #309
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Did you miss the Ashes ? Or the entire of 2017 where he averaged 27.00 in 12 test matches with no tons ?
Mo had a poor Ashes with the bat, although he wasn't exactly alone in this respect. That said his 2017 batting average is still higher than the career averages of two of the specialist batsmen currently in the XI (Stoneman and Vince). As such they would surely be the ones to be dropped first, especially given that Mo can bowl a bit?
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Old 14th March 2018, 18:19   #310
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Mo had a poor Ashes with the bat, although he wasn't exactly alone in this respect. That said his 2017 batting average is still higher than the career averages of two of the specialist batsmen currently in the XI (Stoneman and Vince). As such they would surely be the ones to be dropped first, especially given that Mo can bowl a bit?
I think Stoneman and Vince should have 5 years at nos 7 and 8 and Mo a while at the top of the order before it would make sense to compare their results with the bat.
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Old 14th March 2018, 21:58   #311
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I'm glad you are leading the charge to stand up for maligned spinners Jock, although saying he lacks wickets is a strange starting point.
Crane has had one test - away from home - the wailing about his selection is ridiculous for a leg spinner his age. Those that canít see he has serious potential for a TWENTY year old should follow another sport. . He needs careful development.

Thatís not to say he should be in the team right now nor that others who have potential shouldnít be considered for selection.

But the Ashes showed again the current incumbent isnít going to take us to higher up the test ranking table.
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Old 14th March 2018, 22:46   #312
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Crane has had one test - away from home - the wailing about his selection is ridiculous for a leg spinner his age. Those that can’t see he has serious potential for a TWENTY year old should follow another sport. . He needs careful development.

That’s not to say he should be in the team right now nor that others who have potential shouldn’t be considered for selection.

But the Ashes showed again the current incumbent isn’t going to take us to higher up the test ranking table.
I agree to an extent, but the likelihood of a 20 year old to have mastered the art of leg spin enough to play Test cricket is pretty low, going by the history of the game. That said, having made the plunge to play him in Australia, they probably should stick with him for a while through thick and thin, otherwise it will have been utterly pointless.
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Old 14th March 2018, 22:51   #313
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"The 23-year-old six foot six Canterbury fast bowler, who was part of the New Zealand Under-19s squad in 2014, missed the start of this season with injury, has a highest first-class score of 40, and is more known for his exploits with the ball. A few around the ground raised an eyebrow when he batted ahead of Scott Kuggeleijn (three first-class centuries) in this side, but he certainly didn't look out of place. He took a particular liking to Wood, with a strike-rate of 163 against him, while Anderson did not take kindly to some of his batting - at one stage the umpire had to step in. His century came from 110 balls when he nudged a single off Moeen. It won't class in his official records, but he can tell the story of this innings for years to come."
Welcome to the experience of what is dubbed the "Engine Room" in New Zealand Domestic Cricket - the trait of the top order collapsing in a heap and the innings being revitalised by a century down at number 8. A number of specialists around for this wonderful Kiwi trait - Andrew Ellis, Doug Bracewell, Scott Kuggeleijn, Luke Woodcock, Adam Milne etc. etc. Happens all the time - don't feel disheartened by it.
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Old 14th March 2018, 23:42   #314
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Crane has had one test - away from home - the wailing about his selection is ridiculous for a leg spinner his age. Those that canít see he has serious potential for a TWENTY year old should follow another sport. . He needs careful development.

Thatís not to say he should be in the team right now nor that others who have potential shouldnít be considered for selection.

But the Ashes showed again the current incumbent isnít going to take us to higher up the test ranking table.
I have an idea. Why doesn't he go on a few lions tours to develop or for Hampshire. Oh yes. I remember he always plays as second (or third) spinner so we should pick him at the highest level because he doesn't get the game time in lower levels.
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Old 14th March 2018, 23:44   #315
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Not sure death would be enough for the Crane bashers on here to excuse his lack of wickets.

As predicted selection will be as if the Ashes never happened.
Haha. Brilliant. Slated our star man from the main series of the summer despite him being clearly carrying an injury in the ashes. I smell double standards.
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Old 15th March 2018, 05:07   #316
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I'm baffled that England still persist with Vince at number 3. How many games do you get on the basis of 'but he looks like a test batsman' when his numbers across all formats indicate that he is not? Just give a kid a go at this point.
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Old 15th March 2018, 11:28   #317
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Good to see Livingstone putting some pressure on the as yet unestablished batsmen.

Cricinfo says "There appears to be an increasing possibility that Stokes will be considered as a batsman only for the first Test." Presumably, with Ali unable to play as a real spinner, that would mean that we'd pick four seamers. Then if Stokes were to play at all he'd have to play in place of Vince, giving an XI such as this:

Cook Stoneman Malan Root Stokes Bairstow Ali Woakes Overton Broad Anderson.
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Old 15th March 2018, 11:49   #318
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Good to see Livingstone putting some pressure on the as yet unestablished batsmen.

Cricinfo says "There appears to be an increasing possibility that Stokes will be considered as a batsman only for the first Test." Presumably, with Ali unable to play as a real spinner, that would mean that we'd pick four seamers. Then if Stokes were to play at all he'd have to play in place of Vince, giving an XI such as this:

Cook Stoneman Malan Root Stokes Bairstow Ali Woakes Overton Broad Anderson.
Thorpe on Livingstone:

Quote:
But Liam Livingstone played very well. He's been given an opportunity here and has fitted in very well. He's not in the potential starting XI but he's shown the head coach what he's capable of and that's what you want. For a few of the guys it's a reminder, a bit of a kick up the backside, that you've got to get up to speed pretty quickly.
Given how poor our batting has been for quite some time I find it baffling that Livingstone has already been ruled out.

That said if Stokes can't bowl I'd much rather Overton played instead of Vince, as per your XI above.
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Old 15th March 2018, 12:25   #319
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Thorpe on Livingstone:



Given how poor our batting has been for quite some time I find it baffling that Livingstone has already been ruled out.

That said if Stokes can't bowl I'd much rather Overton played instead of Vince, as per your XI above.
Yeah it's pretty shocking that they've ruled him out, even if they were thinking that way there's no real need to announce it to the world or even LL and the team.

Has Stokes picked up an injury that I haven't heard about?
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Old 15th March 2018, 12:30   #320
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Thorpe on Livingstone:

Given how poor our batting has been for quite some time I find it baffling that Livingstone has already been ruled out.
Livingstone made the fatal error of actually scoring a decent amount of runs. What he needed to do was look the part for 20 before nicking off.
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