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Old 10th August 2020, 20:01   #1
Rebelstar
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England v Pakistan, 2nd Test at The Ageas Bowl, Southampton, 13-17 August 2020

Thought with this kicking off Thursday was about time someone created a thread

Stokes has gone home, to New Zealand, and Lawrence is away for a family bereavement.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53712110
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53723071

Stokes' absence will leave the squad a little thin on the batting front, no doubt England will do the usual and shuffle the bowlers as logic would dictate!


I would think England would be looking to tighten up the batting, 62/4 and 117/5 in the 1st and 2nd innings respectively as much contributing to their struggle towards victory in the 1st Test as the much more talked about Buttler missed chances/drops, obviously sells a story better to say he "owed England" than to point at the lack of runs from the top order.

After Pope and Buttler the next highest scorer in either innings was Root with 42, Sibley with 36 and then you get down to 14 with SEVEN scores from top six batsmen across the two innings of 14 or less.

Put another way Buttler scored 113 runs in the match, only TWENTY runs less than Sibley, Burns, Root and Stokes COMBINED..... and he had to come in at 62/4 and 106/4
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Old 10th August 2020, 23:17   #2
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Should we be glad it’s Stokes who will be absent and not Buttler?
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Old 11th August 2020, 03:10   #3
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Thursday, ace ... love it, keep them coming ...
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Old 11th August 2020, 06:36   #4
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Azam needs some big runs. Pakistan were rather fortunate that they got the score they did in their first innings, if Butler took his chances it would have been a very comfortable victory for England. Is Rauf available for selection? For all of Naseems promise, he barely moves the ball off the straight. Are the county cricket games streaming for free anywhere?
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Old 11th August 2020, 08:43   #5
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I think people get fascinated by pace and select bowlers, but there is only so much that pace alone can do against decent batsmen. What really helps is pace aided by movement in the air or off the pitch. So, as MRNC points out, Naseem needs more than just pace to really make a difference.
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Old 11th August 2020, 10:23   #6
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Originally Posted by MRNC4.0 View Post
Azam needs some big runs. Pakistan were rather fortunate that they got the score they did in their first innings, if Butler took his chances it would have been a very comfortable victory for England. Is Rauf available for selection? For all of Naseems promise, he barely moves the ball off the straight. Are the county cricket games streaming for free anywhere?
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I think people get fascinated by pace and select bowlers, but there is only so much that pace alone can do against decent batsmen. What really helps is pace aided by movement in the air or off the pitch. So, as MRNC points out, Naseem needs more than just pace to really make a difference.
Agreed, but in fairness to the kid, he's only a kid, so not surprising he has plenty of room for improvement. He got one to nip away from Root in the second innings and from what I saw creates a good seam position.

Most of the bowlers are struggling with getting movement this summer, probably due to the saliva regs. Saying that, Wasim Akram was very critical of the Pakistani team for the lack of care they gave the ball on Saturday.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:39   #7
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I would think England would be looking to tighten up the batting, 62/4 and 117/5 in the 1st and 2nd innings respectively as much contributing to their struggle towards victory in the 1st Test as the much more talked about Buttler missed chances/drops, obviously sells a story better to say he "owed England" than to point at the lack of runs from the top order.

After Pope and Buttler the next highest scorer in either innings was Root with 42, Sibley with 36 and then you get down to 14 with SEVEN scores from top six batsmen across the two innings of 14 or less.

Put another way Buttler scored 113 runs in the match, only TWENTY runs less than Sibley, Burns, Root and Stokes COMBINED..... and he had to come in at 62/4 and 106/4
Buttler is in the side as a keeper who can bat. If he wasn't keeping, would he still have been there? If Sibley had been in a terrible run with the bat, then won the game by taking key wickets with his occasional leg spin,would people be saying he'd justified his selection?

Anyway I'm sure Buttler will retain his place now. I've always been impressed by his character and his batting ability, it's his failure to fulfil his batting potential that frustrates me. If his batting contributions were as consistently effective as Matt Prior's (for example) I'd be more willing to forgive the occasional keeping lapses, but so far he's fallen too far short of that benchmark.

I would assume Crawley for Stokes (with Root to 4) will be the only change to the top 8, with maybe a shuffle of the pace pack.
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Old 11th August 2020, 15:17   #8
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... Are the county cricket games streaming for free anywhere?
I think you can watch Notts, Glamorgan and Somerset when they play at home, via the county websites. There may be others.
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Old 11th August 2020, 15:19   #9
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Buttler is in the side as a keeper who can bat. If he wasn't keeping, would he still have been there? If Sibley had been in a terrible run with the bat, then won the game by taking key wickets with his occasional leg spin,would people be saying he'd justified his selection?

Anyway I'm sure Buttler will retain his place now. I've always been impressed by his character and his batting ability, it's his failure to fulfil his batting potential that frustrates me. If his batting contributions were as consistently effective as Matt Prior's (for example) I'd be more willing to forgive the occasional keeping lapses, but so far he's fallen too far short of that benchmark.

I would assume Crawley for Stokes (with Root to 4) will be the only change to the top 8, with maybe a shuffle of the pace pack.
It was only because Buttler didn't convince as a test batsman that he got the gloves. It seems he kept place due his contributions in the dressing room.
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Old 11th August 2020, 20:13   #10
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It was only because Buttler didn't convince as a test batsman that he got the gloves. It seems he kept place due his contributions in the dressing room.
We have come full circle on this narrative. In tests, Buttler can't hold down a place in the top 5 as a batsman, but at 6 or 7 his capabilities are highly appealing. However, 6 or 7 really need to be allrounder spots, or wicketkeeper.

If he can get back his confidence with the gloves, he keeps his place, for me.
First step of admitting he had a shocker in the field he has done. He deserves to get more chances.
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Old 11th August 2020, 20:33   #11
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Originally Posted by Prince of Denmark View Post
Buttler is in the side as a keeper who can bat. If he wasn't keeping, would he still have been there? If Sibley had been in a terrible run with the bat, then won the game by taking key wickets with his occasional leg spin,would people be saying he'd justified his selection?

Anyway I'm sure Buttler will retain his place now. I've always been impressed by his character and his batting ability, it's his failure to fulfil his batting potential that frustrates me. If his batting contributions were as consistently effective as Matt Prior's (for example) I'd be more willing to forgive the occasional keeping lapses, but so far he's fallen too far short of that benchmark.

I would assume Crawley for Stokes (with Root to 4) will be the only change to the top 8, with maybe a shuffle of the pace pack.
The comparison to Sibley is a false one. Buttler is not a keeper who can bat, he's a wicket-keeping-batting all-rounder. Stokes would be the only appropriate comparison really. Stokes can justify his place in the side on both disciplines, as has been clearly shown the last two matches. If Buttler's keeping lets him down, or his batting, there is the other side as well, but it does mean he gets doubly exposed to criticism too. I think Nasser has explained this quite well for Sky over the summer.

Sibley is there as a batsman. If he freakishly took a few wickets it would not make up for repeated failures with the bat.
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Old 11th August 2020, 22:04   #12
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England batting order likely to be stronger - 4 bowlers plus Root.

Crawley for Stokes and Wood for Jimmy ?
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Old 11th August 2020, 22:52   #13
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Stuart Broad has been fined 15% of his match fee after being found guilty of using abusive language towards a player in the 1st test.

The match referee who fined him is his dad.
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Old 12th August 2020, 09:43   #14
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England batting order likely to be stronger - 4 bowlers plus Root.

Crawley for Stokes and Wood for Jimmy ?
Sort of the approach, but Curran likely is back in, in place of Jofra Archer.

Last edited by Steveh : 12th August 2020 at 17:07. Reason: Thought the team had been announced officially, rather than just a “probable”
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Old 12th August 2020, 11:02   #15
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Stuart Broad has been fined 15% of his match fee after being found guilty of using abusive language towards a player in the 1st test.

The match referee who fined him is his dad.
I wondered if that might happen!
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Old 12th August 2020, 14:18   #16
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England's 14-man squad for the second Test against Pakistan

Joe Root (C), James Anderson , Jofra Archer, Dominic Bess, Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Jos Buttler, Zak Crawley, Sam Curran, Ollie Pope, Ollie Robinson, Dom Sibley, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood #ENGvPAK
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Old 12th August 2020, 14:26   #17
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Buttler is in the side as a keeper who can bat. If he wasn't keeping, would he still have been there?
Can't remember for sure if there was a Test where England had three keepers in the side, wouldn't rule it out.

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If Sibley had been in a terrible run with the bat, then won the game by taking key wickets with his occasional leg spin,would people be saying he'd justified his selection?
Wasn't it Sibley who came out in the media to say he might have had five centuries in 10 Tests? If it was him with average around 40 I was quite surprised his figures are that goo


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Anyway I'm sure Buttler will retain his place now. I've always been impressed by his character and his batting ability, it's his failure to fulfil his batting potential that frustrates me. If his batting contributions were as consistently effective as Matt Prior's (for example) I'd be more willing to forgive the occasional keeping lapses, but so far he's fallen too far short of that benchmark.

I would assume Crawley for Stokes (with Root to 4) will be the only change to the top 8, with maybe a shuffle of the pace pack.
Almost guaranteed to be as many if not more changes in bowling than batting, even if there weren't 'just cause' like playing so many games in (relatively) quick succession

Buttler's batting might be fairer to judge on position - at #6, 16 inns, 696 runs @ 43.50 - although his series to series averages are pretty ordinary even for someone batting #7

For me shows England like their buddy buddy approach, he's fortunate not to have failed with bat or he'd likely have been turfed out in spite of the in crowd England team
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Old 12th August 2020, 14:30   #18
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England's 14-man squad for the second Test against Pakistan

Joe Root (C), James Anderson , Jofra Archer, Dominic Bess, Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Jos Buttler, Zak Crawley, Sam Curran, Ollie Pope, Ollie Robinson, Dom Sibley, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood #ENGvPAK
batting surely will be Sibley, Burns, Crawley, Root, Pope and Buttler from that lot, be hard to drop Woakes and can't see England u-turning on Bess so be three from Broad, Curran, Wood and Anderson
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Old 12th August 2020, 14:35   #19
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I think they might go with Wood as one of the bowlers this time.
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Old 12th August 2020, 14:41   #20
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If he can get back his confidence with the gloves, he keeps his place, for me.
First step of admitting he had a shocker in the field he has done. He deserves to get more chances.
Under the same circumstances Bairstow would doubtless have been bitching about unfair criticism and claiming to have silenced the doubters with his runs.

I think Foakes is destined to be another James Foster now.
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