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Old 12th August 2020, 14:42   #21
Chin Music
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I think they might go with Wood as one of the bowlers this time.
My 'guess' is that Archer, Anderson are rested and Robinson misses out of the 14.

Meaning

Sibley
Burns
Crawley
Root
Pope
Buttler
Woakes
Curran
Bess
Broad
Wood
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Old 12th August 2020, 14:44   #22
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I think they might go with Wood as one of the bowlers this time.
Yes I think so too. Although last time at the Rose Bowl 34-2-110-2.
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Old 12th August 2020, 14:53   #23
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I have not even seen discussion that Bess might be dropped. He has played 4 matches this summer and taken 7 wickets at 46.

Is it because he has scored 84 runs?

In five matches last summer leach scored 147 runs and took 12 wickets at 28. Seems odd.
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Old 12th August 2020, 15:04   #24
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Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
I have not even seen discussion that Bess might be dropped. He has played 4 matches this summer and taken 7 wickets at 46.

Is it because he has scored 84 runs?

In five matches last summer leach scored 147 runs and took 12 wickets at 28. Seems odd.
Isn't the problem that Leach really hasn't played very much cricket at all? He's been ill, and only bowled in that pre-Windies warm up game. Although I understand your point of view, he really does need to be playing for Somerset I think. His last test was the first test v New Zealand last November.
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Old 12th August 2020, 15:09   #25
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Old 12th August 2020, 16:00   #26
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Isn't the problem that Leach really hasn't played very much cricket at all? He's been ill, and only bowled in that pre-Windies warm up game. Although I understand your point of view, he really does need to be playing for Somerset I think. His last test was the first test v New Zealand last November.
I would love him to be turning out for us (although spin has not featured much of course). It is hard for him to get cricket under his belt if he is not playing!
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Old 12th August 2020, 16:15   #27
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I would love him to be turning out for us (although spin has not featured much of course). It is hard for him to get cricket under his belt if he is not playing!
Which is entirely the problem. I hope he is well enough to play for Somerset and that he does play, because him being in the wider England 'bubble' and not being able to play cricket for Somerset is just nuts. If they don't consider him bowling ready for test matches, especially against a usually spin competent Pakistan then there is no point in him playing at all. If England does go to India (or the UAE) for the test series, they need him to have actually got some first class cricket under his belt by that time.
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Old 12th August 2020, 16:18   #28
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Have England named any standby players to keep in the bubble, as presumably with the 3rd Test starting just 4 days later at the same venue, they would need to be isolated in the bubble environment as from now.
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Old 12th August 2020, 16:21   #29
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Which is entirely the problem. I hope he is well enough to play for Somerset and that he does play, because him being in the wider England 'bubble' and not being able to play cricket for Somerset is just nuts. If they don't consider him bowling ready for test matches, especially against a usually spin competent Pakistan then there is no point in him playing at all. If England does go to India (or the UAE) for the test series, they need him to have actually got some first class cricket under his belt by that time.
If Leach leaves the bubble and Bess is ill for the Test, we have no one. Can't call up someone from outside.
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Old 12th August 2020, 16:29   #30
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The comparison to Sibley is a false one. Buttler is not a keeper who can bat, he's a wicket-keeping-batting all-rounder. Stokes would be the only appropriate comparison really. Stokes can justify his place in the side on both disciplines, as has been clearly shown the last two matches. If Buttler's keeping lets him down, or his batting, there is the other side as well, but it does mean he gets doubly exposed to criticism too. I think Nasser has explained this quite well for Sky over the summer.

Sibley is there as a batsman. If he freakishly took a few wickets it would not make up for repeated failures with the bat.
I don't think it's a question of justifying one's place in the side. No one is entitled to play next time just because they played this time and did well. The selectors should pick the best team they can, that's all.

I don't think Stokes has justified his place in the side as a bowler in the last 2 matches. He's picked as a batsman, and in this respect he's in the same situation as Sibley. If he can't bowl, he's still picked as a batsman. If he bowls and does well, he'll be picked next time as a batsman. It is conceivable that if Stokes and A. N. Other were neck and neck in the competition for the last batting spot in the team, one might use the bowling as a tie-breaker. But that seems unlikely ever to be the case.

One way of thinking about Stokes and Buttler is to imagine, on the one hand, that everyone else in the top 7 apart from the keeper was just as good a bowler as Stokes, and, on the other hand, that everyone else in the top 7 was just as good a keeper as Buttler. In the first instance, the value of Stokes's bowling contribution is massively reduced (but as one of the top six his batting is just as important as ever). In the second instance, the value of Buttler's keeping contribution is unaffected, because there's only one actual keeper and it's him. Yet still when he scores runs, they are runs that anyone else in the team could in principle have scored instead. In that sense there is no formal difference between picking Buttler as keeper and picking a keeper who's poor with the bat: in both cases you are picking someone who will keep wicket throughout, and who will contribute with the bat according to competence and necessity. It's exactly the same role either way. The main differences are: (a) that the Buttler option requires the rest of the team's batting to be poorer, in order that the keeper's runs be valuable enough to offset his keeping mistakes; and (b) that the Buttler option is more likely to be dropped during his comparatively lean periods with the bat.

Regarding the last match, there's a sense in which Buttler was lucky that the top order failed in the final innings, because that gave him an extra opportunity to contribute to the match -- an opportunity that was not his by right in the way that the opportunity to contribute with the gloves was his by right (since he was picked to have the dagger by his name on the scorecard).

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Isn't the problem that Leach really hasn't played very much cricket at all?
I don't think so, no. It has certainly emerged (in the absence of the RH/LH excuse) as the most popular thing to say when one is reluctant to point out that England obviously prefer the lesser spinner because of his batting, so it is hardly a surprise (or indeed really a problem) that his bowling has often been poor. But if the bowling was the point, then Bess's poor performances would be much more important than Leach's non-existent ones.
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Old 12th August 2020, 16:58   #31
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If Leach leaves the bubble and Bess is ill for the Test, we have no one. Can't call up someone from outside.
At the very least they should consider having someone else on standby for the third test and let Leach go and play some cricket.

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I don't think so, no. It has certainly emerged (in the absence of the RH/LH excuse) as the most popular thing to say when one is reluctant to point out that England obviously prefer the lesser spinner because of his batting, so it is hardly a surprise (or indeed really a problem) that his bowling has often been poor. But if the bowling was the point, then Bess's poor performances would be much more important than Leach's non-existent ones.
Although I don't think Bess is brilliant, I don't believe he's bowled poorly like you suggest. I don't think it is particularly fair on Leach that he would be asked to bowl in a test match (either tomorrow or for the third test) on the back of no competitive cricket for a long time. The odds are that he would likely bowl worse than Bess because of that lack of cricket, regardless of whether he might have more ability as a bowler (and Leach does).
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Old 12th August 2020, 17:19   #32
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Agree with Chin about Leach - he’s hopefully training hard and putting behind him the physical issues he was struggling with, but is very rusty as far as actual match bowling is concerned. That is pretty inevitable with the biosecure bubble approach, so his role is as the spinner understudy. Bess can hardly be faulted for bowling relatively few overs in conditions largely favourable to seam and swing thus far.
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Old 12th August 2020, 17:32   #33
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I would say the pitches have been more spin friendly that the ones leach played on vs Aussies. He took 12 at about 25 didn’t he? Bess had final day vs windows and the pitch in the last game which turned loads. Granted buttler dropped some but he did not bowl well.
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Old 12th August 2020, 19:27   #34
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... Although I don't think Bess is brilliant, I don't believe he's bowled poorly like you suggest. I don't think it is particularly fair on Leach that he would be asked to bowl in a test match (either tomorrow or for the third test) on the back of no competitive cricket for a long time. The odds are that he would likely bowl worse than Bess because of that lack of cricket, regardless of whether he might have more ability as a bowler (and Leach does).
I don't mean to dis Bess; he's only bowled poorly in one or two spells as far as I can tell. Asking Leach to play a test wouldn't be any more unfair on him than it was on the rest of them in the first test vs the Windies. I suspect he's been playing cricket more or less continuously (though not in matches) and I think he would be overwhelmingly likely to bowl better than Bess if selected. If Bess had been playing because Leach was injured (rather than being preferred because of his batting), Leach would be straight back in when fit after those performances by Bess.
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Old 12th August 2020, 21:20   #35
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I guess it's a bit like being on tour and deciding to bring someone in for the last test. Except I think in Leach's case, his last competitive match was nine months ago.
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Old 13th August 2020, 03:17   #36
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Have England named any standby players to keep in the bubble, as presumably with the 3rd Test starting just 4 days later at the same venue, they would need to be isolated in the bubble environment as from now.
They already have Leach, Foakes and Bracey in their bubble in addition to the squad of 14 named for the Second Test.
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:35   #37
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They already have Leach, Foakes and Bracey in their bubble in addition to the squad of 14 named for the Second Test.
Bracey?
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Old 13th August 2020, 07:56   #38
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Forecast looks atrocious for this match. We might get a morning session today then it'll be see you next Friday.
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Old 13th August 2020, 11:03   #39
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Bracey?
I've no idea who he is either.
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Old 13th August 2020, 11:10   #40
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I've no idea who he is either.
Young Glos batsman/keeper:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/england...er/747031.html
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