Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > International Cricket
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 5th September 2020, 09:30   #101
Ricky_Rabbit
Established International
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Leicestershire
Team(s): Notts and England
Posts: 3,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
I just donít see a world where Hales is better than our opener Bairstow who averaged about 50 at about a run a ball in our World Cup win. Moeen is in the side because he can bowl. Hales would need to be an outstanding player to be able to behave like he did and get in the side. He is good but compared to the other option he is not outstanding. If YJB was going then Roy would come in!

Both of them are better fielders than Hales too.
We need a battery of top players for the world t20, of which Hales is one.

When Roy was injured in the WC we had to turn to James Vince.

If that happens again, we need quality in depth.
__________________
Still waiting for Notts to produce some decent batsmen
Ricky_Rabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 09:45   #102
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 12,106
The thing is I'm not sure Hales is actually any better than the many options we have right now, that's before you factor in he isn't great in the field, he doesn't bowl or keep wicket, he has a taste for the Persian rugs which is a no-no for a pro sportsman imo, he is the kind of person who kicks an unconscious man lying on the floor, he sets up social media accounts publicly taking the **** out of teammates and generally has the IQ of a dead wasp.
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 10:18   #103
Rebelstar
International Cricketer
 
Rebelstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
Why would he when he has got away with it so far? The England selectors should grow a pair, pick Hales in the squad anyway, and see what Morgan does. At the moment they are aiding and abetting Morgan's shameful behaviour.
Hales frozen out is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

And not a question of "where does he fit?", he would give a very good batting option at the top of the order. "Doesn't bowl or keep wicket" is irrelevant, plenty in the side can keep wicket so don't need someone to come in on that basis, and England already fill the side with 6+ bowling options.

What he could bring to the batting would make up for any less than stellar fielding performances, having the top order get you off to a flier puts your side in a strong position and pressure on the opposition. You also can't tell me that each and every player is only picked if they can bat, bowl, field and keep (to a moderately high level or better), utter nonsensical argument against picking Hales, possibly influenced by the number in the side who have kept at times (part-time, not necessarily for England)
Rebelstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 10:25   #104
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 26,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
The thing is I'm not sure Hales is actually any better than the many options we have right now, that's before you factor in he isn't great in the field, he doesn't bowl or keep wicket, he has a taste for the Persian rugs which is a no-no for a pro sportsman imo, he is the kind of person who kicks an unconscious man lying on the floor, he sets up social media accounts publicly taking the **** out of teammates and generally has the IQ of a dead wasp.
More than anything, the England embarrassment of riches is now at the top of the order with the emergence of Banton and Buttler having been pushed up the order. Surely, England need to find a couple of players in the middle order. Moeen and Curran are poor options at 6 and 7.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 10:30   #105
Rebelstar
International Cricketer
 
Rebelstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,699
Last 4 T20Is

Ali : 72 runs @ 18.00 & 3 overs, 1 wkt @ 29.00
Bairstow : 54 runs @ 13.50

I haven't included batting SR or bowling ER, not really the issue, more Ali barely bowling and not exactly consistent with bat so what is he? Bairstow less than brilliant, a 44 and three single figure starts, I'm sure Hales, "IQ of a dead wasp" or otherwise, could manage that or better.

I didn't pick out Ali for a "have a go at Ali" post, more that he doesn't seem to be being bowled much, 4 ODIs and an over in each, why is he in the side if he isn't going to be bowled even when he took a wicket....!?!??!

Could question what Gregory and Mahmood 'brought to the party' last series, no wickets, not a lot of economy and one innings of 12 (14 runs in total) Point being seems very harsh to 'find reasons' to dump on Hales and block a possible return when England seem to pluck out non-contributors and underuse others all the time

Hales averages 31.02 with the bat in T20Is, and 32 catches in 60 matches which is not bad for someone who "isn't great in the field" given he'd hardly be keeping or indeed fielding all day at slip

That said he wasn't averaging great in 2019, but respectable or better averages in all but 2-3 calendar years, and those were only 3 and 4 T20Is in two cases, didn't really get going fully in 2016 (SIX scores of 16-37, but only two fails in an average of 18.25)
Rebelstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 10:39   #106
Rebelstar
International Cricketer
 
Rebelstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
More than anything, the England embarrassment of riches is now at the top of the order with the emergence of Banton and Buttler having been pushed up the order. Surely, England need to find a couple of players in the middle order. Moeen and Curran are poor options at 6 and 7.
Surely then the counter logic is that they were pushed up the order for a reason and if you find a workable solution at the top they can go back down ie Hales open, Buttler at #6

The issue I have with Ali at present is he's not really cutting it with the bat, his fifty the other day I gather his first in any format for England since January 2019 although in fairness it isn't like he's been in the Test side, but still evident he isn't batting well at present.

So if not cutting it with the bat (consistently) then in the side as an all-rounder? In which case surely the captain needs to, I dunno, BOWL HIM! (not that I rate the captain very highly, carried by good players and some superhuman efforts at times)



If a bowler gets hit for a few in T20s you just accept it, bring someone else on and bring them back, or trust they are the right/best bowler and they will turn it around. Obviously without Stokes it is trickier as there is no natural and good bowling option who can bat 1-6 so they would be better served with a strong top six and five of their best bowlers

Whether eg Sam Curran, Woakes etc might be among those is debatable, but Rashid, Archer and Wood are all but non-combatants when it comes to batting, might cut it in T20s for a few streaky fours, lusty blows and cameo 10s or so, but unconvinced those above them are suited for 6-8 duties.

Besides anything else the more strength you have in the squad the better, bits n pieces doesn't cut much, never has, and unless Ali hits some form with bat and bowls more that's basically what he is. Never been too convinced with Jordan, astounds me how early in the order he comes in, and not sure Tom Curran, perhaps his bowling figures carried by a 4/36 in the Caribbean

But it is only T20s so not sure it's worth that much debate
Rebelstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 11:21   #107
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 26,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelstar View Post
Surely then the counter logic is that they were pushed up the order for a reason and if you find a workable solution at the top they can go back down ie Hales open, Buttler at #6

The issue I have with Ali at present is he's not really cutting it with the bat, his fifty the other day I gather his first in any format for England since January 2019 although in fairness it isn't like he's been in the Test side, but still evident he isn't batting well at present.
Your full post had a lot of different issues, I was mainly interested in the opening batting options. Firstly, apart from Buttler, Bairstow and Banton, England are missing Jason Roy through injury and could quite conceivably pick Phil Salt to open, who has a very fine t20 record across the world. It is less vital that Hales plays international t20 cricket. Perhaps ODIs is a little different, where he is still comparable or better than other options apart from Roy and Bairstow.

I think Ali has been lucky to stay in short form cricket, he offers generally little batting these days and is rarely a consistent wicket taker. I guess he is a good team man.

Re bowling options, it appears that England are too much back of a length early on and this limits their wicket taking ability in the early overs. I think there is a very good case for David Willey in this form. New ball swing and a couple of wickets.... Issue is that he is no death bowler and you would have to either bowl him four overs through with the danger he leaks runs after power play or have him bowl when preferred option might be a spinner.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 11:42   #108
square leg umpire
Posting God
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: yorkshire
Team(s): yorkshire
Posts: 10,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRNC4.0 View Post
11pm, so I can watch a half. ODI's at 10pm. Few late nights ahead then.
Strange how even the ODI on Sunday's a day night match. They usually have weekend games starting in the morning.
square leg umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 12:56   #109
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 26,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky_Rabbit View Post
We need a battery of top players for the world t20, of which Hales is one.

When Roy was injured in the WC we had to turn to James Vince.

If that happens again, we need quality in depth.
We have banton and Malan for t20. The t20 World Cup is in India.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 14:38   #110
PavlovsDog
Club Cricketer
 
PavlovsDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 178
Would Lawrence or Livingstone be valid options at 5 or 6, with the ability to act as a second spinner?
PavlovsDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 15:38   #111
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 11,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
... The team spirit in our side looks great. Why ruin it for someone who they have lost trust in? ...
The trust thing is a red herring. To play in the same team as someone else effectively, you just have to trust them to want to win the game. Hales is perfectly capable of functioning in a team environment (e.g. in the IPL). Morgan's public story talks about trust only because what is actually going on is something he would rather not talk about. It is such a cosy club with the journos that he can get away with saying any old nonsense and never gets properly grilled about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
The thing is I'm not sure Hales is actually any better than the many options we have right now, that's before you factor in he isn't great in the field, he doesn't bowl or keep wicket, he has a taste for the Persian rugs which is a no-no for a pro sportsman imo, he is the kind of person who kicks an unconscious man lying on the floor, he sets up social media accounts publicly taking the **** out of teammates and generally has the IQ of a dead wasp.
Most of this post is spiteful and beside the point. Hales should be in squads, or at the very least should be allowed to be in squads, otherwise James Vince is only an injury or two away, and if he's injured too, it's someone even worse than that.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 16:09   #112
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 24,026
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
We have banton and Malan for t20. The t20 World Cup is in India.
Banton shouldn't be in the squad in that case, as he'll be facing lots of spin coming in after the power play.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 18:30   #113
square leg umpire
Posting God
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: yorkshire
Team(s): yorkshire
Posts: 10,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Banton shouldn't be in the squad in that case, as he'll be facing lots of spin coming in after the power play.
If Banton's in the side he should be at opener. England stubborn about playing Buttler there even though he would be better as a finisher.
square leg umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 21:48   #114
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 29,965
Great game and highly enjoyable finish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by square leg umpire View Post
About the omission of Joe Root because he isn't a big hitter, Australia have gone down the opposite route and recalled Steve Smith to the T20 side after 3 years absence. They see him as anchoring the innings while the big hitters play around him, interesting to see if it works.
And we saw how that worked. The reason you include a Steve Smith is for situations like last night and oops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking View Post
Does that mean I have to erase the 6 he hit off Shaheen from the memory banks too? Shot of the Summer for me, glorious.
Wasn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goochies Lovechild View Post
I dont get Malan, his stats stand up great but I haver seen him as a T20 player. So far I think both Joss and Banton have felt under pressure fron his scoring rate.
I agree with this. He looks like a massive regression to the mean candidate. He was a momentum hoover and seems a poor fit for England's top order when they like to run fast between the wickets and push for every run they can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stonesfan View Post
Have to say that was a fantastic last five overs from England.
A great last ten even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky_Rabbit View Post
We need a battery of top players for the world t20, of which Hales is one.

When Roy was injured in the WC we had to turn to James Vince.

If that happens again, we need quality in depth.
Yep. I don't think our depth is as great as some assume. One or two injuries or out of form players and it seems to be stretched. I mean I know we haven't been picking test players but we've resorted to picking Lewis Gregory FFS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
The thing is I'm not sure Hales is actually any better than the many options we have right now, that's before you factor in he isn't great in the field, he doesn't bowl or keep wicket, he has a taste for the Persian rugs which is a no-no for a pro sportsman imo, he is the kind of person who kicks an unconscious man lying on the floor, he sets up social media accounts publicly taking the **** out of teammates and generally has the IQ of a dead wasp.
Setting up social media accounts? Are you saying he was the one behind the KP one?

In terms of balance I think we may need another right-hander. We have Malan, Morgan and Moeen all in the middle order with Stokes waiting in reserve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PavlovsDog View Post
Would Lawrence or Livingstone be valid options at 5 or 6, with the ability to act as a second spinner?
I like Lawrence. I don't especially rate his bowling but he's the type of player who can carve a niche for himself in this England side by keeping it going.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
geoff_boycotts_grandmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 22:42   #115
Ricky_Rabbit
Established International
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Leicestershire
Team(s): Notts and England
Posts: 3,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
We have banton and Malan for t20. The t20 World Cup is in India.
Pretty sure Hales has scored runs in t20 tournaments all over the world. In fact, I think he is Englands 2nd highest run scorer in the format after Morgan.

Hales is one of our best white ball players, there is not much argument against this, regardless of some comments about his IQ, which are frankly worthy of those with a small IQ. I don't recall intelligence being a pre-requisite in top level sport.

My point, was more about strength in depth. Another Vince moment could cost England dearly. Banton is a talent, but we don't yet know if he is the real deal and injuries happen.
__________________
Still waiting for Notts to produce some decent batsmen
Ricky_Rabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2020, 23:58   #116
Petarea
Posting God
 
Petarea's Avatar
Pub bore & nutter, with a generously tenuous grip on reality
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 15,759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky_Rabbit View Post
Pretty sure Hales has scored runs in t20 tournaments all over the world. In fact, I think he is Englands 2nd highest run scorer in the format after Morgan.

Hales is one of our best white ball players, there is not much argument against this, regardless of some comments about his IQ, which are frankly worthy of those with a small IQ. I don't recall intelligence being a pre-requisite in top level sport.

My point, was more about strength in depth. Another Vince moment could cost England dearly. Banton is a talent, but we don't yet know if he is the real deal and injuries happen.
Whilst I haven't taken a great deal of notice of what he's been doing in the various tournaments world wide, I'm pretty sure the Notts twitter account posted some impressive stats about his performances a while back.

He took 4 catches in the match the other day for Notts, one of them an absolute cracker on the boundary edge, so it's probably been improving his fielding too. Perhaps his all important IQ has also improved over this time, so maybe Team England could let him re-sit the exams.
__________________
"Now we've signed it - we had better read it!"

Douglas Hurd, Maastricht, 7th Feb 1992.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dxZ1MoyXNA
Petarea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2020, 01:28   #117
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 26,524
He broke team rules. Was put on final warning. He broke rules again. He got binned off. We won the World Cup. Now we have a brilliant t20 batting line up with stokes and Roy to come back in. He burned his bridges. I am really struggling to see why they would risk bringing him back in. Maybe put him on a final final warning?
Sir Virgs and Zamora is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2020, 10:20   #118
Sir Coolerking
World Class
 
Sir Coolerking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Berks
Team(s): England, Sussex, Portsmouth
Posts: 5,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
He broke team rules. Was put on final warning. He broke rules again. He got binned off. We won the World Cup. Now we have a brilliant t20 batting line up with stokes and Roy to come back in. He burned his bridges. I am really struggling to see why they would risk bringing him back in. Maybe put him on a final final warning?
He is also now 31 and there are younger talents coming through like Salt & Crawley etc who are having a good Blast, been on the England radar and performed well around the world. We won't need to go back to Vince again.

I still have no idea why Banton and Buttler are in the positions they are, simply makes no sense. Are they trying to make Banton into a middle order batsman by playing him against an outstanding bowling attack? It's not going to end well...
Sir Coolerking is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2020, 11:07   #119
luckyluke
Established International
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking View Post
He is also now 31 and there are younger talents coming through like Salt & Crawley etc who are having a good Blast, been on the England radar and performed well around the world. We won't need to go back to Vince again.

I still have no idea why Banton and Buttler are in the positions they are, simply makes no sense. Are they trying to make Banton into a middle order batsman by playing him against an outstanding bowling attack? It's not going to end well...
He’s still a proven performer unlike the others. Is he still our only batsman with a T20I 100, and holder of our record ODI score?

We got away with winning the WC without him. If Roy’s injury was worse we wouldn’t have made the semis.

However, we don’t know what conversations Hales has had with the management since then. I’m sure if he really wanted to play for England again he’d have made every effort to contact/give assurances etc, possibly that’s what Morgan was hoping for rather than truly shutting the door and maybe Hales hasn’t done that.
__________________
Most heartless decision:

In a women's league match in Denmark, a heavily pregnant woman arrived at the crease, and asked for a runner. Her request was denied, on the grounds that her incapacity had not occured during the course of the match.
luckyluke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2020, 14:56   #120
Aidan11
Harmisonesque
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Somewhere cold and wet
Posts: 42,889
Australia win the toss and bat.

Anyone watching on BBC Vaughan?
Aidan11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 17:23.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Cricket247.org