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Old 7th October 2018, 12:02   #101
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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Tough on Pope who came third in both averages (and top of those who played close to a full season) and runs scored in division one. Should be in over Bell or Vince.
Vince also scored his runs in division one.

There were a couple of decent bowlers in Div 2 - Matt Henry, Ollie Stone, Tim Murtagh that you just needed to see off - but the likes of Glamorgan's bowling attacks were weak.
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Old 7th October 2018, 18:31   #102
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Vince also scored his runs in division one.

There were a couple of decent bowlers in Div 2 - Matt Henry, Ollie Stone, Tim Murtagh that you just needed to see off - but the likes of Glamorgan's bowling attacks were weak.

More than just those - Ollie Robinson (Sussex), Mohammad Abbas (Leics), Keith Barker (Warwicks), Joffra Archer (Sussex), Chris Rushworth (Durham): all pretty useful bowlers too. If there is a weakness, I'd say it is in the lack of class spinners...But not many of them in Div. 1 either.
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Old 7th October 2018, 21:46   #103
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More than just those - Ollie Robinson (Sussex), Mohammad Abbas (Leics), Keith Barker (Warwicks), Joffra Archer (Sussex), Chris Rushworth (Durham): all pretty useful bowlers too. If there is a weakness, I'd say it is in the lack of class spinners...But not many of them in Div. 1 either.
My point wasn't that there aren't good bowlers but there isn't much depth to division 2 attacks.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 7th October 2018, 23:22   #104
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Hildreth averaged 45 for over 1000 runs in the top division of the championship. 29 in the blast and over 60 in the one day cup. Harsh he doesn’t make the cut.
He obviously didn't accrue as many points as Vince or Bell, as the team was selected by a formula awarding points for runs scored and wickets taken across all three competitions. This seems to create a bias towards bits and pieces players over specialists.

As someone who's only really interested in the Championship there are some odd inclusions in that team. Each county tweaks its team selection between one competition and another so it's strange to pick this team for all three formats.
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Old 8th October 2018, 07:45   #105
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My point wasn't that there aren't good bowlers but there isn't much depth to division 2 attacks.
Well, you actually said:

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There were a couple of decent bowlers in Div 2

And I'd say that was far from the truth. Presumably there are more better bowlers in Div. 1...Because if not, the whole rationale for two divisions is invalid.
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Old 8th October 2018, 07:58   #106
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More than just those - Ollie Robinson (Sussex), Mohammad Abbas (Leics), Keith Barker (Warwicks), Joffra Archer (Sussex), Chris Rushworth (Durham): all pretty useful bowlers too. If there is a weakness, I'd say it is in the lack of class spinners...But not many of them in Div. 1 either.
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My point wasn't that there aren't good bowlers but there isn't much depth to division 2 attacks.
All ok bowlers, but not good by international standards (Abbas excluded but even for him, he's not played many tests). It's a testament to the paucity of batting ability in division 2 that these bowlers racked up so many wickets so cheaply.
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Old 8th October 2018, 08:56   #107
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Old 8th October 2018, 08:57   #108
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All ok bowlers, but not good by international standards (Abbas excluded but even for him, he's not played many tests). It's a testament to the paucity of batting ability in division 2 that these bowlers racked up so many wickets so cheaply.
How many bowlers 'good by international standards' play in Div. 1?

Morne Morkel - certainly; Peter Siddle - once upon a time; Dale Steyn - only 5 matches & one 5 wicket haul; Stuart Broad - only 5 matches; Kyle Abbott - perhaps.

Other successful bowlers (Leach, Onions, Harmer, Jake Ball, the Overtons etc) are either marginal Test players or have not played Test cricket yet.
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Old 8th October 2018, 12:40   #109
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How many bowlers 'good by international standards' play in Div. 1?

Morne Morkel - certainly; Peter Siddle - once upon a time; Dale Steyn - only 5 matches & one 5 wicket haul; Stuart Broad - only 5 matches; Kyle Abbott - perhaps.

Other successful bowlers (Leach, Onions, Harmer, Jake Ball, the Overtons etc) are either marginal Test players or have not played Test cricket yet.
It's not that you have to face Morkel but that if you see off Morkel you then have to face Sam and Tom Curran.

Or if you see off Siddle you then have to face Porter, Harmer and Cook.

Or if you see off Broad you have to face Ball, Foottit and Fletcher when someone like Fletcher would be the main man for most division 2 attacks.
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Old 8th October 2018, 13:28   #110
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It's not that you have to face Morkel but that if you see off Morkel you then have to face Sam and Tom Curran.

Or if you see off Siddle you then have to face Porter, Harmer and Cook.

Or if you see off Broad you have to face Ball, Foottit and Fletcher when someone like Fletcher would be the main man for most division 2 attacks.
I take your point of view, but these things can be exaggerated - the Currans, for example, played 11 matches for Surrey between them, and took 44 wickets in total or Foottit - 3 matches, 6 wickets @46 each.

As I said, you'd expect Div. 1 players to be better than Div. 2 ones on average...Otherwise, why not go back to one combined division?

But I'm not convinced by the argument that Div. 1 is full of top flight players.
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Old 8th October 2018, 13:40   #111
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How many bowlers 'good by international standards' play in Div. 1?

Morne Morkel - certainly; Peter Siddle - once upon a time; Dale Steyn - only 5 matches & one 5 wicket haul; Stuart Broad - only 5 matches; Kyle Abbott - perhaps.

Other successful bowlers (Leach, Onions, Harmer, Jake Ball, the Overtons etc) are either marginal Test players or have not played Test cricket yet.
So I'm meant to feel better about div2 because div1 is barely any better?

I think in general, the struggles of many of the smaller counties who get promoted would suggest both batting and bowling is a good deal stronger in the top flight, as might be expected, but I agree there is plenty of room for improvement.
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Old 8th October 2018, 13:57   #112
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I take your point of view, but these things can be exaggerated - the Currans, for example, played 11 matches for Surrey between them, and took 44 wickets in total or Foottit - 3 matches, 6 wickets @46 each.

As I said, you'd expect Div. 1 players to be better than Div. 2 ones on average...Otherwise, why not go back to one combined division?

But I'm not convinced by the argument that Div. 1 is full of top flight players.
Either way, despite all the changes and the variables in standards, it all remains brilliant to watch. Which, ultimately, is what matters.
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Old 8th October 2018, 14:38   #113
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I take your point of view, but these things can be exaggerated - the Currans, for example, played 11 matches for Surrey between them, and took 44 wickets in total or Foottit - 3 matches, 6 wickets @46 each.

As I said, you'd expect Div. 1 players to be better than Div. 2 ones on average...Otherwise, why not go back to one combined division?

But I'm not convinced by the argument that Div. 1 is full of top flight players.
Division 1 isn't full of top tier players. There's a substantial gap between that and the international game. But there's then a further substantial gap between division 1 and division 2 because division 2 have a bigger drop off in talent between their star players opening the bowling and those change bowlers making up the numbers than the drop in talent in division 1 between the star players and those splitting time between the 1st and 2nd XI.

When the Currans were out Surrey had the likes of Dernbach, Meaker, Clarke - who have all played for England - to come in. They'd be opening the bowling in most division 2 sides and carrying the attack rather than uncertain about their place in a division 1 side.

Foottit is probably an argument for the gulf in the divisions as IIRC he was a devastating division 2 bowler but essentially an also ran in division 1.
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Old 8th October 2018, 18:56   #114
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Division 1 isn't full of top tier players. There's a substantial gap between that and the international game. But there's then a further substantial gap between division 1 and division 2 because division 2 have a bigger drop off in talent between their star players opening the bowling and those change bowlers making up the numbers than the drop in talent in division 1 between the star players and those splitting time between the 1st and 2nd XI.

When the Currans were out Surrey had the likes of Dernbach, Meaker, Clarke - who have all played for England - to come in. They'd be opening the bowling in most division 2 sides and carrying the attack rather than uncertain about their place in a division 1 side.

Foottit is probably an argument for the gulf in the divisions as IIRC he was a devastating division 2 bowler but essentially an also ran in division 1.
I think Will Gidman was a classic example. He had Keith Miller-like career figures in Div 2, was signed by Notts and quickly disappeared because he couldn't make the step up.
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