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Old 28th September 2018, 08:57   #221
Sir Coolerking
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Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
A better solution would be to play the Championship evenly throughout the ruddy season, enabling both batsmen and bowlers to have their days.
Certainly wouldn't disagree with that.
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Old 28th September 2018, 10:59   #222
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It's really only Stevens, though, isn't it? There seems to be this notion abounding that every county has a couple of slow-medium trundlers taking 60 wickets a season.

A better solution would be to play the Championship evenly throughout the ruddy season, enabling both batsmen and bowlers to have their days.
Of course it goes wider than him. You only need to look at how the matches have panned out in the last week to see that plenty of bowlers of medium fast and below have filled their boots as the season has drawn to a close.

I'm not having a go at Ben Coad/Sam Cook/Jamie Porter (to name but 3 and I hate calling out the last in particular) for being successful at what they do but the problem is that save for some of our test pitches being somewhat moist either deliberately or due to inclement conditions, they are highly to knock over halfway competent test batsmen even at home with any regularity.

Less said about what such a bowler would likely achieve away from home when you already have plenty of evidence about what some senior bowlers have done in the last 3 for years.
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Old 28th September 2018, 11:22   #223
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This blog makes some good points about the scheduling of CC games:

http://bythesightscreen.com/
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Old 28th September 2018, 11:40   #224
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Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking View Post
To highlight how poor batting has been this summer, there have been 9 matches completed inside 2 days. The previous record since all matches have been 4 days was 6 ('93 & '96).
I'm sure there must have been other seasons when as many if not more matches were concluded within twelve hours of play, but time lost to rain or bad light delayed the finish until the third or fourth day.

There has clearly been a relative imbalance between bat and ball. Only eight Division 1 batsmen who played more than half the matches averaged over 40: Pope, Burns, Jennings, Hildreth, Bopara, Borthwick, Abell, Vince. No one scored more than four centuries (Burns, Pope, Mitchell) whereas last year Sangakkara score eight in just nine appearances. No one in either division drew more than five matches; last year Surrey drew ten.

In Division 2 its even worse with only Bell, Trott, Rhodes, Ben Brown and Slater averaging over 40 from 8-14 matches.
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Old 28th September 2018, 12:19   #225
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Of course it goes wider than him. You only need to look at how the matches have panned out in the last week to see that plenty of bowlers of medium fast and below have filled their boots as the season has drawn to a close.

I'm not having a go at Ben Coad/Sam Cook/Jamie Porter (to name but 3 and I hate calling out the last in particular) for being successful at what they do but the problem is that save for some of our test pitches being somewhat moist either deliberately or due to inclement conditions, they are highly to knock over halfway competent test batsmen even at home with any regularity.

Less said about what such a bowler would likely achieve away from home when you already have plenty of evidence about what some senior bowlers have done in the last 3 for years.
Historically, though, this is nothing new. Apart from the once-a-generation quick such as Larwood, Tyson or Snow, England have always struggled find bowlers to take Australia on at their own game overseas. Although, quality medium pacers such as Tate, Bedser and Botham enjoyed some decent success Down Under...who can forget Beefy taking a five-fer at Melbourne in 1986, at barely Derek Underwood pace?

The issue has certainly been accentuated in recent years, with the f-c programme played mainly in the cloudier damper months. This means that practitioners such as Stevo has enjoyed a level of success that maybe he wouldn't have in years gone by. But there would have still have been plenty of specialist medium to medium-fast seamers dominating the county scene.
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Old 28th September 2018, 12:50   #226
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We should celebrate the diversity of surfaces - they are the same for both teams.
The fact that a skilled medium pacer takes wickets is not necessarily a bad thing.
Durham is always going to be a different surface to Perth. So what?
The fact that it turns at Taunton S/B celebrated, surely it is far better than the old "roads" there?
Diversity fosters adaptability and should improve batsmen techniques.
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Old 28th September 2018, 14:42   #227
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I'm sure there must have been other seasons when as many if not more matches were concluded within twelve hours of play, but time lost to rain or bad light delayed the finish until the third or fourth day.
Ok, another way of looking at it, you have to go back to 1973 to find a lower runs per wicket average in the Championship.
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Old 28th September 2018, 14:56   #228
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Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
Historically, though, this is nothing new. Apart from the once-a-generation quick such as Larwood, Tyson or Snow, England have always struggled find bowlers to take Australia on at their own game overseas. Although, quality medium pacers such as Tate, Bedser and Botham enjoyed some decent success Down Under...who can forget Beefy taking a five-fer at Melbourne in 1986, at barely Derek Underwood pace?

The issue has certainly been accentuated in recent years, with the f-c programme played mainly in the cloudier damper months. This means that practitioners such as Stevo has enjoyed a level of success that maybe he wouldn't have in years gone by. But there would have still have been plenty of specialist medium to medium-fast seamers dominating the county scene.
Yes, we know that climactically that England does favour this type of bowling and you are bang on with that.

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We should celebrate the diversity of surfaces - they are the same for both teams.
The fact that a skilled medium pacer takes wickets is not necessarily a bad thing.
Durham is always going to be a different surface to Perth. So what?
The fact that it turns at Taunton S/B celebrated, surely it is far better than the old "roads" there?
Diversity fosters adaptability and should improve batsmen techniques.
I'm sorry I can't and won't see it in that way. I prefer a more complete set of skills. Medium pace bowling is the least difficult form of bowling technically and sometimes all it needs is a proud seam to be delivered relatively mechanically efficiently and the pitch does the rest. It is not a real test of skill in comparison to other types of bowling. For me it is about having the type of skills that will get results in all conditions. The best fast, fast medium and spinners tend to have the skills to take wickets in a variety of circumstances. Far less so the military mediums.
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Old 28th September 2018, 15:07   #229
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I'm sorry I can't and won't see it in that way. I prefer a more complete set of skills. Medium pace bowling is the least difficult form of bowling technically and sometimes all it needs is a proud seam to be delivered relatively mechanically efficiently and the pitch does the rest. It is not a real test of skill in comparison to other types of bowling. For me it is about having the type of skills that will get results in all conditions. The best fast, fast medium and spinners tend to have the skills to take wickets in a variety of circumstances. Far less so the military mediums.

You are entitled to your point of view, but to dismiss a skill in that way seems a bit perverse.

After all, if 'military mediums' (note the use of a pejorative term there ) were so easy to develop, why aren't there a dozen or more Darren Stevens playing these days? Every county would have one or more!

Actually, as Kent fans often say, 'there is only one Darren Stevens'...and there are 40 odd opposing batsmen who are glad of the fact!
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Old 28th September 2018, 15:09   #230
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Yes, we know that climactically that England does favour this type of bowling and you are bang on with that.



I'm sorry I can't and won't see it in that way. I prefer a more complete set of skills. Medium pace bowling is the least difficult form of bowling technically and sometimes all it needs is a proud seam to be delivered relatively mechanically efficiently and the pitch does the rest. It is not a real test of skill in comparison to other types of bowling. For me it is about having the type of skills that will get results in all conditions. The best fast, fast medium and spinners tend to have the skills to take wickets in a variety of circumstances. Far less so the military mediums.
In general I agree, but - Philander?
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Old 28th September 2018, 15:51   #231
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You are entitled to your point of view, but to dismiss a skill in that way seems a bit perverse.

After all, if 'military mediums' (note the use of a pejorative term there ) were so easy to develop, why aren't there a dozen or more Darren Stevens playing these days? Every county would have one or more!

Actually, as Kent fans often say, 'there is only one Darren Stevens'...and there are 40 odd opposing batsmen who are glad of the fact!
Maybe not every club produces a bowler quite so prolific in wicket-taking as Stevens has been in Div 2 but there are plenty of medium's to medium fasts who take plenty of wickets at the beginning and end of the year. I included Porter in this, and he's had a tougher year this year, although has taken a fair few wickets at the end of the season to help boost his tally.

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In general I agree, but - Philander?
Philander has slowed up a bit since his prime and would have been closer to fast medium up until a couple of years ago. He's still around 78-79 mph and has the disadvantage of using a Kookaburra most of the time. I'd say he probably has a few different grips that help get that ball to move in a way that the county bowlers with the duke wouldn't be able to do.
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Old 28th September 2018, 16:54   #232
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Philander has slowed up a bit since his prime and would have been closer to fast medium up until a couple of years ago. He's still around 78-79 mph and has the disadvantage of using a Kookaburra most of the time. I'd say he probably has a few different grips that help get that ball to move in a way that the county bowlers with the duke wouldn't be able to do.

So he is a skilled medium pacer. He has learned to adapt his game to succeed.
A good bowler is a good bowler.
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Old 28th September 2018, 17:37   #233
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So he is a skilled medium pacer. He has learned to adapt his game to succeed.
A good bowler is a good bowler.
He's still a more medium fast than medium pace, but even he didn't get to play in the South African's recent series in Sri Lanka as they felt seam bowling at that pace wouldn't be that effective.Then again with the South African batting line up versus spin at this moment, that was hardly the decisive factor.He's still far more skilled than many a county seamer. I still go back to watching Ollie Pope destroy a very medium pace Yorkshire 'attack' earlier this summer, as the effect of the new ball and leaden skies wore off, he took them apart on a sunny afternoon.

I'm not exactly that complimentary about that type of bowling. As my avatar suggests I was far more a fan of real quick bowling when I was a young boy and I found that I had something of a dislike for medium pacers. I had fun arguments with Kim in days of yore how much I had little time for the likes of Tim Munton. (Kim was a big Warwickshire fan). To me that was the epitome of a typical English seamer who got drafted into the England side after county success, only to find that they simply didn't have what it takes once a pitch was far better prepared to last five days.
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Old 28th September 2018, 18:00   #234
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I'm not exactly that complimentary about that type of bowling. As my avatar suggests I was far more a fan of real quick bowling when I was a young boy and I found that I had something of a dislike for medium pacers. I had fun arguments with Kim in days of yore how much I had little time for the likes of Tim Munton. (Kim was a big Warwickshire fan). To me that was the epitome of a typical English seamer who got drafted into the England side after county success, only to find that they simply didn't have what it takes once a pitch was far better prepared to last five days.
But equally, in the same series, England picked another county seam stalwart, Neil Mallender, who proved a success in helping the side win its only Test of that season. Surely, it's all about the selectors identifying the right bowlers for the right surfaces?
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Old 28th September 2018, 19:05   #235
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I'm not exactly that complimentary about that type of bowling. As my avatar suggests I was far more a fan of real quick bowling when I was a young boy and I found that I had something of a dislike for medium pacers. I had fun arguments with Kim in days of yore how much I had little time for the likes of Tim Munton. (Kim was a big Warwickshire fan). To me that was the epitome of a typical English seamer who got drafted into the England side after county success, only to find that they simply didn't have what it takes once a pitch was far better prepared to last five days.
You seem to let your prejudice (I think we can cal it that) get the better of you...If we look at Munton (and remember I'm not a Warwicks fan ) we can see he took 737 wickets at 25.86 in First Class Cricket...and another 280 at 28.81 in List A games.

So there must have been a lot of seaming pitches during 1985-2001 (when he was playing ). Yes he wasn't a great success in Test cricket...but he only played 2 Tests so hardly had a real chance.

What I see (& remember) is a very good first class cricketer, probably not a Test player but only a very small % of players are. With a bit of luck he might have played as many Tests as, say, Mark Wood has (12 thus far). And I suspect one might have had as good, or even a better, Test record than Wood.

But we forgive Wood because he has 'pace'
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Old 28th September 2018, 20:03   #236
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You seem to let your prejudice (I think we can cal it that) get the better of you...If we look at Munton (and remember I'm not a Warwicks fan ) we can see he took 737 wickets at 25.86 in First Class Cricket...and another 280 at 28.81 in List A games.

So there must have been a lot of seaming pitches during 1985-2001 (when he was playing ). Yes he wasn't a great success in Test cricket...but he only played 2 Tests so hardly had a real chance.

What I see (& remember) is a very good first class cricketer, probably not a Test player but only a very small % of players are. With a bit of luck he might have played as many Tests as, say, Mark Wood has (12 thus far). And I suspect one might have had as good, or even a better, Test record than Wood.

But we forgive Wood because he has 'pace'
But it is completely in my right to say if I like/appreciate that type of bowling. I donít and it reminds me of the unsuccessful England teams that have played test cricket when bowlers of that ilk got selected.

Of course I realise that someone like him was a successful county bowler but that underlined why so many England sides failed. The type of prolific seamer who would too likely fail in test cricket. It is like watching the target man in 80s and 90s football who could get plenty of goals in the old first division but look so cumbersome when playing international football (think Mark Hateley).
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Old 28th September 2018, 20:09   #237
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But it is completely in my right to say if I like/appreciate that type of bowling. I donít and it reminds me of the unsuccessful England teams that have played test cricket when bowlers of that ilk got selected.

Of course I realise that someone like him was a successful county bowler but that underlined why so many England sides failed. The type of prolific seamer who would too likely fail in test cricket. It is like watching the target man in 80s and 90s football who could get plenty of goals in the old first division but look so cumbersome when playing international football (think Mark Hateley).

Not all first class cricketers will be Test players. The fact that Munton played 2 Tests & Darren Stevens (also the recipient of some flack here) has played none, means it's not really their fault that England have gone through periods with little success internationally.

As others have said, we've NEVER really produced a lot of fast bowlers. Maybe it's the climate, maybe the pitches, maybe something else...
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Old 28th September 2018, 21:42   #238
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its surely where selectors earn their corn as its not solely about stats in county cricket - Stevens stats are good but he's ultimately not quick enough for test cricket - there are a few others around who arent selected for same reason
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Old 28th September 2018, 23:07   #239
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its surely where selectors earn their corn as its not solely about stats in county cricket - Stevens stats are good but he's ultimately not quick enough for test cricket - there are a few others around who arent selected for same reason
Yes, presumably, similar to Mahmood (2 first class games this summer; the student warm up & the final match this week) being selected for the Lions ahead of Bailey (most wickets in Division 1 ever present in the Lancashire championship team this year). That said, one is fit and the other is fit .... at the moment.
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Old 29th September 2018, 09:46   #240
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its surely where selectors earn their corn as its not solely about stats in county cricket - Stevens stats are good but he's ultimately not quick enough for test cricket - there are a few others around who arent selected for same reason
And, given his age, no-one has suggested he should have been selected (though a few years ago, when his batting was often very destructive, a white ball call up might well have been a good call).
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