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Old 1st September 2007, 05:36   #201
Midnight
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Originally Posted by slop View Post
There was probably little chance that he'd give up on SA but you never know and these things can escalate.

I'm not sure what can be done to counter the lure of the pound. It's something we had to live with with Packer and the rebel tours. Hopefully more people have the attitude that Kallis does preferring to play for his country.
Slop if Bosman can't prove his fitness, which seems increasingly likely, who would you nominate to replace him in the 20/20 squad?
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Old 1st September 2007, 13:00   #202
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Bugger:

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/south...ry/309191.html

Bad loss that, he's been in excellent form and is an integral ODI player. If this is due to the 2020 malarkey then the selectors really have fcked up big time.
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Old 1st September 2007, 13:42   #203
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Good ODI player, very good. Remember his offcutters ripping through England at the WC.
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Old 1st September 2007, 15:08   #204
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Good ODI player, very good. Remember his offcutters ripping through England at the WC.
It seems that this 20/20 World Cup has been very costly for SA cricket. Between losing stalwarts like Hall and the normal exodus to England, they'll struggle for depth. Time for a new selection panel to be convened.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 21:48   #205
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It seems that this 20/20 World Cup has been very costly for SA cricket. Between losing stalwarts like Hall and the normal exodus to England, they'll struggle for depth. Time for a new selection panel to be convened.
At 32 I would have thought he'd be one of the seniors you'd want to see replaced with promising youngsters (Philander and Morkel being the obvious ones). However, this is terrible news for SA as he would have been integral to the ODI strategy for the next couple of years and is a good one to have on the test fringes in case of injury or conditions that suit him like England.

If the 20/20 squad was the only issue then I'd agree that it would be more important to appease him than lose him (might set a bad precedent though). However that seems unlikely and the ICL and Kolpak might be a significant part. Hall was in the Irish tour squad, was contracted till April and his decision is clearly a surprise to the CSA so he was in their plans.

I might have considered Hall or Van Wyk to replace Bosman.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 00:29   #206
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At 32 I would have thought he'd be one of the seniors you'd want to see replaced with promising youngsters (Philander and Morkel being the obvious ones). However, this is terrible news for SA as he would have been integral to the ODI strategy for the next couple of years and is a good one to have on the test fringes in case of injury or conditions that suit him like England.

If the 20/20 squad was the only issue then I'd agree that it would be more important to appease him than lose him (might set a bad precedent though). However that seems unlikely and the ICL and Kolpak might be a significant part. Hall was in the Irish tour squad, was contracted till April and his decision is clearly a surprise to the CSA so he was in their plans.

I might have considered Hall or Van Wyk to replace Bosman.
Yes I would have thought Hall would have been a good choice to replace Bosman. Apparently what really peeved if was that his stint with Kent was truncated on the basis that he was called back to SA to prepare for the 20/20 tournament, then sent on an 'A' tour to Zimbabwe and not picked for the World Cup. Smacks of incompetence, mismanagement or mischief by the selectors. Hard to blame Hall in that context.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 11:33   #207
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Not quite since SA embark on 18 months of pretty much wall to wall cricket after the 20/20 world cup and Hall is would have been a big part of the team. Perhaps The People's MouthPiece missed the mark in belittling the importance of the cup

I do sympathise with Hall, throughout his career he was dropped and selected on a whim (though I often agreed with dropping him until recently) and moved up and down the order depending on what was needed and he never complained. The ultimate team man.

At the same time, the selectors are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They're under pressure to try new blood after the disappointing world cup exit which means players (like Hall and Langeveld) who won't feature in the next cup are going to be vulnerable to the "experiment" even if they are playing well. But the moment they are left out, even if temporarily, they run off to County cricket and now the ICL.

I don't think the 20/20 world cup is worth losing Hall over, but I'm also weary of getting stuck with a team (whether it's successful or not) and only constantly dropping the young players that inevitably struggle at first, because we're afraid of losing the senior players to higher paying leagues.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 11:45   #208
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Not quite since SA embark on 18 months of pretty much wall to wall cricket after the 20/20 world cup and Hall is would have been a big part of the team. Perhaps The People's MouthPiece missed the mark in belittling the importance of the cup

I do sympathise with Hall, throughout his career he was dropped and selected on a whim (though I often agreed with dropping him until recently) and moved up and down the order depending on what was needed and he never complained. The ultimate team man.

At the same time, the selectors are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They're under pressure to try new blood after the disappointing world cup exit which means players (like Hall and Langeveld) who won't feature in the next cup are going to be vulnerable to the "experiment" even if they are playing well. But the moment they are left out, even if temporarily, they run off to County cricket and now the ICL.

I don't think the 20/20 world cup is worth losing Hall over, but I'm also weary of getting stuck with a team (whether it's successful or not) and only constantly dropping the young players that inevitably struggle at first, because we're afraid of losing the senior players to higher paying leagues.

You make some valid observations though perhaps they could have allowed Hall to remain in England if the intention was not to use him for the 20/20 World Cup. That way another youngster could have been blooded on the 'A't tour to Zimbabwe. But it's a worrying trend that so many of your players seem to run off with their stumps and sulk when not picked for the Proteas. As I've previously mentioned I think the ICL and Kolpak status are a concern because they give players an easy out. But players also have to realise that 15 or so into 11 won't go and that youngsters have to bide their time. Hussey would have been lost to our cricket years ago if he wasn't so patient.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 12:03   #209
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You make some valid observations though perhaps they could have allowed Hall to remain in England if the intention was not to use him for the 20/20 World Cup. That way another youngster could have been blooded on the 'A't tour to Zimbabwe. But it's a worrying trend that so many of your players seem to run off with their stumps and sulk when not picked for the Proteas. As I've previously mentioned I think the ICL and Kolpak status are a concern because they give players an easy out. But players also have to realise that 15 or so into 11 won't go and that youngsters have to bide their time. Hussey would have been lost to our cricket years ago if he wasn't so patient.
Yeah, I do think Hall has a legitimate grievance here with the way he has been treated and the CSA and selectors are far from perfect. But mistakes are going to be made along the way, they shouldn't be irreversible.

I see that Smith has "broken his silence" over Hall and Kallis, though he hasn't actually said anything. Which in a way is saying something as he hasn't come out in support of their non-selection and he's been at odds with the selectors before over their decisions (Dropping Nel for instance). I wonder if part of the decision to drop members of his senior 'clique' isn't part of sending a message to him that he isn't running the show as he thinks. This is complete speculation of course!
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Old 3rd September 2007, 15:31   #210
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Yeah, I do think Hall has a legitimate grievance here with the way he has been treated and the CSA and selectors are far from perfect. But mistakes are going to be made along the way, they shouldn't be irreversible.

I see that Smith has "broken his silence" over Hall and Kallis, though he hasn't actually said anything. Which in a way is saying something as he hasn't come out in support of their non-selection and he's been at odds with the selectors before over their decisions (Dropping Nel for instance). I wonder if part of the decision to drop members of his senior 'clique' isn't part of sending a message to him that he isn't running the show as he thinks. This is complete speculation of course!

I think there is some merit in your argument because I did post a link shortly after the World Cup that suggested his 'power' might be cut. A clique is not a great thing team wise though you wonder if some of the people talking about it do so with an element of sour grapes. Having read the odd cricket book I gather that most teams have cliques to some extent and sometimes it's based around longevity in the squad etc. Of course with any group dynamic some will get on better with others though it's the captain's job to ensure he doesn't alienate or give the appearance of isolating any of the players.

One thing I've noticed about Smith is that while he tends to shoot his mouth off at times, politically he tends to be reasonably smart when it comes to playing the 'game' required of him to keep his job. I noticed that implicit in his comments is that he's disappointed that neither Kallis nor Hall will be in the 20/20 squad but he's been careful not to be openly critical of the selectors.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 15:41   #211
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I think there is some merit in your argument because I did post a link shortly after the World Cup that suggested his 'power' might be cut. A clique is not a great thing team wise though you wonder if some of the people talking about it do so with an element of sour grapes. Having read the odd cricket book I gather that most teams have cliques to some extent and sometimes it's based around longevity in the squad etc. Of course with any group dynamic some will get on better with others though it's the captain's job to ensure he doesn't alienate or give the appearance of isolating any of the players.
Cliques aren't good in that they can alienate newcomers to the squad. At the same time, having a group of senior players that form a nucleus of the team, that the youngsters can turn to for advice, and that support the captain has its merits.

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One thing I've noticed about Smith is that while he tends to shoot his mouth off at times, politically he tends to be reasonably smart when it comes to playing the 'game' required of him to keep his job. I noticed that implicit in his comments is that he's disappointed that neither Kallis nor Hall will be in the 20/20 squad but he's been careful not to be openly critical of the selectors.
One of the reasons why Boucher is forking out the dosh and Smith is captain, I suppose It's not a terrible thing for Smith to disagree with his bosses but he realises that, in public anyway, they have to present a unified front. He also recognises that he isn't the boss. Seeing more of his statement though, he does also bring up the point, on his own accord, that leaving out senior players allows promising players to be tried out and give them exposure which does go some way to supporting the decision.
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Old 4th September 2007, 01:46   #212
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[quote=slop;94060]One of the reasons why Boucher is forking out the dosh and Smith is captain, I suppose

Still think that Boucher would be the ideal captain though.

I notice that Hall is 'muzzled' until his contract expires (according to his wife who doesn't want him fined) but then he'll reveal all!

Arthur said that he would have been selected to tour Pakistan.
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Old 4th September 2007, 12:24   #213
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Bosman is officially out of the 20/20 World Cup. Will be interesting to see his replacement. Would have tipped Hall before his defection unless they decide it has to be a 'quota' players. Kallis must be some chance also.
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Old 4th September 2007, 12:40   #214
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Bosman is officially out of the 20/20 World Cup. Will be interesting to see his replacement. Would have tipped Hall before his defection unless they decide it has to be a 'quota' players. Kallis must be some chance also.
From what I read Kallis would have been the most likely replacement ahead of Hall, but that was before throwing his toys out. Seeing as Bosman is a batsman, that would actually make more sense than Hall, who is a bowler.

I like the way you pre-empt that any player of colour chosen will of course be a "quota".
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Old 4th September 2007, 13:59   #215
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From what I read Kallis would have been the most likely replacement ahead of Hall, but that was before throwing his toys out. Seeing as Bosman is a batsman, that would actually make more sense than Hall, who is a bowler.

I like the way you pre-empt that any player of colour chosen will of course be a "quota".
I wasn't being mischievous by pre-empting that because I have a reasonable knowledge of SA cricket and even its domestic scene and I can't recall any coloured or black batsman with the credentials to replace him yet Kallis as a batsman replacement sticks out like a sore thumb. So what I'm saying is if a person with low credentials of colour is named it will quite obviously be a quota or 'target' player. And that's cricket CSA's perogative but I hope they don't try to argue that said player is superior to Kallis.
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Old 4th September 2007, 14:01   #216
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Even Manthorp acknowledges that Kallis is unlikely to be selected given his reaction to being left out not due to quotas.

Who would you select, after Kallis? I was think Van Wyk.
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Old 4th September 2007, 14:02   #217
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You might also be interested in this article Slop. Manthorp appears to have fears about the future pool of players given the exodus to England, and of late to the ICL.

http://www.supercricket.co.za/defaul...des=sportstalk
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Old 4th September 2007, 14:21   #218
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I had seen it and it's similar to the "problem" faced by England where their pool of players is diluted with Kolpakers, international players and players that will never play for England again. I think the "pool of 30" is very misleading though. Other countries may have a larger pool but if you include SA's 2nd tier competition which feeds the top teams then our pool is a similar size - it's just that it's been split into 2 levels.

His comparison to tennis is very silly given the amount of work CSA has done in taking the game to all the people while tennis had a limited, elite, base during its decline. Cricket's popularity is on the increase in SA despite the national team's mixed fortunes.
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Old 4th September 2007, 15:01   #219
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I had seen it and it's similar to the "problem" faced by England where their pool of players is diluted with Kolpakers, international players and players that will never play for England again. I think the "pool of 30" is very misleading though. Other countries may have a larger pool but if you include SA's 2nd tier competition which feeds the top teams then our pool is a similar size - it's just that it's been split into 2 levels.

His comparison to tennis is very silly given the amount of work CSA has done in taking the game to all the people while tennis had a limited, elite, base during its decline. Cricket's popularity is on the increase in SA despite the national team's mixed fortunes.
Yes I agree about England and the county scene. It's long been argued that the high number of overseas players playing in it limits the number of players available to them for selection. They are trying to redress this by restricting counties to one overseas player from next year but of course Kolpaks and Warne becoming German etc. are scuppering that to some extent.

I also have noticed that you do have that second tier of first class cricket. Maybe he was talking about intense high quality cricket. I've noted recently that he seems to have a more pessimistic outlook, perhaps it's the whole Boucher/Kallis saga and the loss of a few youngsters such as McLaren and VVJ. Nonetheless if some of the blokes such as the Morkels and Philander come through the garden will be looking rosy again.
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Old 4th September 2007, 15:12   #220
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I also have noticed that you do have that second tier of first class cricket. Maybe he was talking about intense high quality cricket. I've noted recently that he seems to have a more pessimistic outlook, perhaps it's the whole Boucher/Kallis saga and the loss of a few youngsters such as McLaren and VVJ. Nonetheless if some of the blokes such as the Morkels and Philander come through the garden will be looking rosy again.
He was, but to ignore the 2 tier system is misleading. We could increase the base but lose the quality as is often argued about the county system whenever England do badly and was a criticism of the South African system when there were many teams. With an increasing number of decent players playing in both England and SA but not available for SA, perhaps an extra team will need to be added to the top tier to increase that pool. At this point though, I think there are still enough not-so-good players playing in the top tier that it isn't yet an issue.

I hadn't noticed Manthorp being more pessimistic than usual, he goes through phases of addressing the situation and not.
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