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Old 5th September 2007, 21:07   #241
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Perhaps they've changed it, but it makes sense to me, ie. 'quota-imbalance' towards white players
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Old 5th September 2007, 23:13   #242
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Perhaps they've changed it, but it makes sense to me, ie. 'quota-imbalance' towards white players
They changed it. The original article had Arendse stressing that Nel's inclusion was not due to any quota or something to that effect.
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Old 6th September 2007, 00:20   #243
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I find the comments re. quotas are set in stone but targets are something to aim for confusing and quota imbalances being changed etc. rather ambiguous. Is it all obfuscating something that nobody really understands?

Now Slop you accused me of being mischievous for claiming that there's an increasing rift between players/board etc. in the context of the Malcolm Conn article. I believe that Bosman's temper tantrum and accusations further suggest this. And this is on top of Hall's defection and he will speak out when his contract expires. On top of Kallis's devisive comments and Boucher's sanction for supporting Kallis. And it was claimed that the board actually wanted the keeper out of the 20/20 tournament. This was followed by Kruger defecting and claiming that white players are favoured. Remember that Telemachus and Robin Peterson claimed after the Caribbean fiasco that they were discriminated against and not picked because they were black. And throw the defections of VVJ and Ryan McLaren into the mix.

Conclusion is inevitable - all is not well with SA cricket.

In terms of playing youngsters, I'm all for it though I was suggesting that your test team and 50 over format squad needs a makeover. With the 20/20 Cup played on home soil, surely you pick your best team. That's all I was questioning. And if Bodi is in your best team, so be it. I'm yet to be convinced though. With your test and one day team, I was advocating the likes of Morne Morkel, Steyn and Philander to replace older guys such as Langeveldt. In Zimbabwe this happened and it was refreshing to see.

Conflict in the ranks is never healthy though and I did refer to morale yesterday and hinted that these sorts of disputes can't be healthy for it.
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Old 6th September 2007, 00:38   #244
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"All is not well with SA cricket." I won't deny that but his article talked of a strike which is utter garbage. You then used that in several places without verifying it or even attempting to actually think about it.

As for the rest, yes there is some immature petulance from the players but you've embelished a great deal there including Telemachus and Peterson's complaint and there were no "claims", the CSA were pretty clear they wanted Boucher sanctioned with a ban from the tournament for his moronic accusations of "ulterior" motives which you so conveniently glossed over before.

There nothing ambiguous about what Arendse said (and I have been repeated constantly). Targets aren't enforced, it is something you aim for, like being the best employee. It's not a sin to strive for the game to be for more than just the white elite. Quotas are enforced, but clearly there are no such quotas here as Nel, a white guy, was selected thus causing, what the press would like to refer to as an imbalance.

You want to make up fantasies and twist things to fit them that's fine, but apart from a few Aussies and bitter white saffers, no-one is going to simply shout "quotas" every time a South African cricketer signs a lucrative county or ICL deal or a coloured bloke is selected to the national team.
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Old 6th September 2007, 03:26   #245
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Originally Posted by slop View Post
"All is not well with SA cricket." I won't deny that but his article talked of a strike which is utter garbage. You then used that in several places without verifying it or even attempting to actually think about it.

As for the rest, yes there is some immature petulance from the players but you've embelished a great deal there including Telemachus and Peterson's complaint and there were no "claims", the CSA were pretty clear they wanted Boucher sanctioned with a ban from the tournament for his moronic accusations of "ulterior" motives which you so conveniently glossed over before.

There nothing ambiguous about what Arendse said (and I have been repeated constantly). Targets aren't enforced, it is something you aim for, like being the best employee. It's not a sin to strive for the game to be for more than just the white elite. Quotas are enforced, but clearly there are no such quotas here as Nel, a white guy, was selected thus causing, what the press would like to refer to as an imbalance.

You want to make up fantasies and twist things to fit them that's fine, but apart from a few Aussies and bitter white saffers, no-one is going to simply shout "quotas" every time a South African cricketer signs a lucrative county or ICL deal or a coloured bloke is selected to the national team.
As far as the strike goes, I never claimed it to be likely or imminent, merely drew people's attention to an article which hinted at possible implosion by the hosts.

As for the defections, I've never directly claimed they're all about quotas; more cite them to suggest unrest in the ranks. This sort of thing doesn't happen in Australia.
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Old 6th September 2007, 09:19   #246
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Pull the other one.
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Old 6th September 2007, 11:17   #247
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Pull the other one.

I'm serious about that Slop. In fact I've claimed that I think some of the defectors use the quota system expediently. You may remember where I suggested that I thought Vaughn van Jaarsveld for instance at the tender age of 22 should have remained patient. And I compared him with the likes of Hodge and Hussey who bided their time. Ditto McLaren, there's nothing to indicate he's more a chance of getting a gig with England than SA.

Nonetheless I've been adamant that quotas cost you KP. On availabe evidence and from the horse's mouth, that would seem difficult to refute.
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Old 6th September 2007, 14:44   #248
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KP's situation is not irrefutable and long debates on this board indicate that not everyone is as willing to swallow the horse's offerings. And he was younger than VVJ when he defected.

And while I do remember you suggesting that VVJ should remain patient and many other such incidents, the frustrating part is where you simply ignore this and go back to repeating your original statements as if the debate never happened. You embellish and exaggerate and when you're called on it you point to some nugget of truth in there that may have seeded the whole fantasy but isn't enough to support it.
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Old 7th September 2007, 03:58   #249
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KP's situation is not irrefutable and long debates on this board indicate that not everyone is as willing to swallow the horse's offerings. And he was younger than VVJ when he defected.

And while I do remember you suggesting that VVJ should remain patient and many other such incidents, the frustrating part is where you simply ignore this and go back to repeating your original statements as if the debate never happened. You embellish and exaggerate and when you're called on it you point to some nugget of truth in there that may have seeded the whole fantasy but isn't enough to support it.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree about this. But apropos KP, I've read detailed accounts of meetings with Bacher etc. where it was outlined to him that quotas would be enforced and he may struggle to get a game and he and his father decided they wouldn't accept it. He also did make a few financial demands allegedly which were unacceptable to Natal, but the bottom line is had he secured a regular place for his province and looked like he might play for the Proteas, I doubt he would have defected to England.
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Old 7th September 2007, 04:59   #250
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While there was some suggestion that the ICC technical committee wouldn't approve of Nel's selection because it was a bowler replacing a batsman, they've sanctioned it.





The ICC has confirmed the Technical Committee of the ICC World Twenty20 2007 has approved Andre Nel as a replacement player for Loots Bosman in South Africa’s squad for the tournament, which runs from 11 to 24 September in South Africa.
The confirmation was conveyed to Cricket South Africa in an email sent on behalf of the tournament Technical Committee today (Thursday).

Nel replaces Bosman after medical reports were received indicating that Bosman had sustained an injury to his back and would not be fit in time to take part in the event.



The last paragraph is interesting because official medical reports indicate Bosman is unfit yet he seems to deny it.
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Old 7th September 2007, 09:43   #251
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I think we'll have to agree to disagree about this. But apropos KP, I've read detailed accounts of meetings with Bacher etc. where it was outlined to him that quotas would be enforced and he may struggle to get a game and he and his father decided they wouldn't accept it. He also did make a few financial demands allegedly which were unacceptable to Natal, but the bottom line is had he secured a regular place for his province and looked like he might play for the Proteas, I doubt he would have defected to England.
It's not what KP said when he first left SA but I guess we'll choose which statements we want to believe.
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Old 7th September 2007, 10:53   #252
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It's not what KP said when he first left SA but I guess we'll choose which statements we want to believe.
Well I've read all the exerpts from his book on the matter. Maybe you know more than him about why he left but I took him on face value.

Meanwhile there are more indications that my statement re. a rift between players and management weren't totally off the mark, despite you implying I was mischief-making.

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?s...4230566C927771
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Old 7th September 2007, 10:56   #253
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KP having rifts with team-mates and management, could never happe!!
I wonder if you'll ask fans of Notts about that, especially Leon?
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Old 7th September 2007, 11:04   #254
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Well I've read all the exerpts from his book on the matter. Maybe you know more than him about why he left but I took him on face value.
And therein lies the problem. you look at one side and state it as fact despite the glaring fact that KP is a master self-publicist and, you might be familiar with this technique, will twist rumour and heresay as proof to support his argument. Personally I need veryfication (other than KP's dad) that that is the whole story. Even in the previous post you acknowledge there is more to the story. KP wasn't the only promising youngster in Natal, let alone SA, they can't give them all lucrative contracts and you've acknowledged this before.

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Meanwhile there are more indications that my statement re. a rift between players and management weren't totally off the mark, despite you implying I was mischief-making.

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?s...4230566C927771
I knew you'd post this, knowing you'd ignore the fact that we've already heard from and dealt with Kruger. Funny how there's no ambiguity in this statement or the fact that he uses Bosman's claim of being injury free which you just questioned! There's nothing "more" about this. It's just a rehash but you're claiming it as new evidence. You may not realise this, but you do make me laugh.
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Old 7th September 2007, 11:05   #255
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KP having rifts with team-mates and management, could never happe!!
I wonder if you'll ask fans of Notts about that, especially Leon?
The 3 lions tattoo exonerates all that, surely.
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Old 7th September 2007, 11:19   #256
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For Kruger's treatment, substitute in Jimmy Anderson, or Paul Collingwood, trailing round the world carrying drinks with appearances few and far between. Told by the coach to "hang in there, you'll get your chance" they did just that and are both now international regulars. It strikes me that in some instances South African players can use Kolpak, quotas and historical race issues as simple excuses, while forgetting that there are only ever 11 players in a team at one time.
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Old 7th September 2007, 11:21   #257
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The last paragraph is interesting because official medical reports indicate Bosman is unfit yet he seems to deny it.
Which is one of the reasons I don't take players for their word. Bosman claims he is fit because "his physio" says he is. His physio is his aunt.

I don't know how qualified his aunt is in diagnosing Spinal injuries but his headlong dive into the advertising boards sounded pretty horrific so I'd be amazed if he was 100% fit.
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Old 7th September 2007, 11:24   #258
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The 3 lions tattoo exonerates all that, surely.
fine I'll emigrate to SA, qualify in 4 years and be the greatest Saffer wrist spinner of all time whilst becoming fluent in Afrikaans
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Old 7th September 2007, 11:25   #259
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For Kruger's treatment, substitute in Jimmy Anderson, or Paul Collingwood, trailing round the world carrying drinks with appearances few and far between. Told by the coach to "hang in there, you'll get your chance" they did just that and are both now international regulars. It strikes me that in some instances South African players can use Kolpak, quotas and historical race issues as simple excuses, while forgetting that there are only ever 11 players in a team at one time.
Well said.

I'm not saying the CSA are innocent in this matter, I'm just a bit shocked at how much assurances these players expect to get before they've proven themselves.
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Old 7th September 2007, 11:27   #260
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fine I'll emigrate to SA, qualify in 4 years and be the greatest Saffer wrist spinner of all time whilst becoming fluent in Afrikaans
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