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Old 20th December 2017, 10:44   #781
Sir Coolerking
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Originally Posted by MRNC4.0 View Post
Agree. I don't think Englands answer is relying even more on pitches that suit gentle medium swing, it will just hurt them more when they tour abroad and they're stuck with a team of right arm medium pacers in conditions that have no sympathy for them yet they're forced to select due to their home records (Woakes being the most glaring example). They should be calling for a greater variety of wickets, to encourage different skill sets. Similarly, I would love for Australia to play more test Cricket in Hobart (the most English deck in Aus) and the SCG to turn 90 degrees from ball one. Homogeneous pitches are not the way forward.
Your last point is interesting because Aussie batsmen are like English bowlers, they don't travel well.

Unless we do start producing proper fast bowlers then we may as well make 5 seaming, grassy tracks for the next Ashes and then the 5-0 would be on.

And whoever mentioned the toss, it makes little difference on these pitches, the Aussies nick off either batting first or second.
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Old 20th December 2017, 10:54   #782
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And whoever mentioned the toss, it makes little difference on these pitches, the Aussies nick off either batting first or second.
Unlikely. More likely to be regular <150 scores from England on such pitches if they bat first. That should should be gettable after England get the worst of conditions and pitch starts settling. You seem to massively over rate your batsmen. They're struggling on batting paradises.
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Old 20th December 2017, 11:45   #783
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Unlikely. More likely to be regular <150 scores from England on such pitches if they bat first. That should should be gettable after England get the worst of conditions and pitch starts settling. You seem to massively over rate your batsmen. They're struggling on batting paradises.
Apart from Smith there is very little difference between these two batting units. I doubt the Aussie batsmen would score that highly against their own bowling line up. The series has largely been decided by the Aussie bowlers and their ability to take 20 wickets (unlike the English unit).

Australia have lost 4 consecutive series in England, and when the ball moves around the matches are not generally that close.
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:05   #784
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Apart from Smith there is very little difference between these two batting units. I doubt the Aussie batsmen would score that highly against their own bowling line up. The series has largely been decided by the Aussie bowlers and their ability to take 20 wickets (unlike the English unit).

Australia have lost 4 consecutive series in England, and when the ball moves around the matches are not generally that close.
Looking back at the test matches in all those series, with the exception of 2015,that's not really been the case. Either the matches have been very close or it's been bowling other than swing that has won it for England.
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Old 20th December 2017, 12:34   #785
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Looking back at the test matches in all those series, with the exception of 2015,that's not really been the case. Either the matches have been very close or it's been bowling other than swing that has won it for England.
When I said move around I meant nipping off the seam......pitches with some life. You don't need that for swing bowling.
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Old 20th December 2017, 13:48   #786
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When I said move around I meant nipping off the seam......pitches with some life. You don't need that for swing bowling.
The Australian wickets have life, it's just different life to those in England.
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Old 20th December 2017, 14:08   #787
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Dobell echoing some of my feelings:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/...-ashes-failure
It's a fair article, although I would come to a different conclusion (country cricket is part of the problem, but can be part of the solution). After all, some of the things that Dobell bemoans - England players being taken out of county action, the four-day game being squeezed for white ball cricket - were just as true in 2005 and 2010/11, when we had very good sides winning Ashes' series.

I can't agree with this sudden suggestion that a proliferation of Kolpaks is a good thing, either - one of the reasons Crane struggled to get a game is that Hampshire had as many as 6 non-England qualified players in a county XI for some matches. A minority of good quality non-qualified players raises standards, but too many restricts opportunities for the types of players we are missing in the national side.

The cricketing calendar in the English summer has been something of a mess for as long as I can recall, certainly since T20 became an important part of it. There's simply too many cricketing days currently.

Overall, there are just too many competing incentives and drivers in cricket - both in England and internationally. Something has to give, and at the moment that seems to be "test performance away from home", because England's travails this month are hardly unique in the test arena over recent years.
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Old 20th December 2017, 14:29   #788
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The Australian wickets have life, it's just different life to those in England.
They also have a Kookaburra ball which doesn't help a great deal.
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Old 20th December 2017, 14:31   #789
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Similarly, I would love for Australia to play more test Cricket in Hobart (the most English deck in Aus) and the SCG to turn 90 degrees from ball one. Homogeneous pitches are not the way forward.


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It's a fair article, although I would come to a different conclusion (country cricket is part of the problem, but can be part of the solution). After all, some of the things that Dobell bemoans - England players being taken out of county action, the four-day game being squeezed for white ball cricket - were just as true in 2005 and 2010/11, when we had very good sides winning Ashes' series.

I can't agree with this sudden suggestion that a proliferation of Kolpaks is a good thing, either - one of the reasons Crane struggled to get a game is that Hampshire had as many as 6 non-England qualified players in a county XI for some matches. A minority of good quality non-qualified players raises standards, but too many restricts opportunities for the types of players we are missing in the national side.

The cricketing calendar in the English summer has been something of a mess for as long as I can recall, certainly since T20 became an important part of it. There's simply too many cricketing days currently.

Overall, there are just too many competing incentives and drivers in cricket - both in England and internationally. Something has to give, and at the moment that seems to be "test performance away from home", because England's travails this month are hardly unique in the test arena over recent years.


England prioritised limited overs cricket under Strauss, so it's no real surprise to see us struggle in the test arena. I expect us to be more competitive once the limited overs series comes around.
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Old 20th December 2017, 15:52   #790
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England prioritised limited overs cricket under Strauss, so it's no real surprise to see us struggle in the test arena. I expect us to be more competitive once the limited overs series comes around.
Why ? Because the WC is in England in 2019.

Did anyone ask the fans what they would prefer ? A shot at the WC but means a 5-0 thrashing in the Ashes ?

Strauss has been a massive let down - I know his wife isn't in good health but I can't think of a single achievement under his stewardship.
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Old 20th December 2017, 16:09   #791
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... Strauss has been a massive let down - I know his wife isn't in good health but I can't think of a single achievement under his stewardship.
Didn't he say it how it is re. KP on the radio? I know the story goes that he thought he wasn't on air, but kudos for that nonetheless.
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Old 20th December 2017, 16:24   #792
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Why ? Because the WC is in England in 2019.

Did anyone ask the fans what they would prefer ? A shot at the WC but means a 5-0 thrashing in the Ashes ?
We've had plenty of 5-0s without any emphasis put on one day cricket before too remember. I don't buy that they have taken their eye off the Test team, just that it's had at least four gaping holes in it for the last few years that nobody has filled. That's a mixture of the players, coach, selectors and counties' faults really.
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Old 20th December 2017, 16:36   #793
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We've had plenty of 5-0s without any emphasis put on one day cricket before too remember. I don't buy that they have taken their eye off the Test team, just that it's had at least four gaping holes in it for the last few years that nobody has filled. That's a mixture of the players, coach, selectors and counties' faults really.
The England Lions matches/training camps under Strauss seem to be very much geared to limited over cricket.
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Old 20th December 2017, 19:39   #794
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Did anyone ask the fans what they would prefer ?
I doubt an organisation that took Test cricket coverage away from tens of thousands of fans gives a hoot what they prefer....especially whilst its home product continues to rake it in.
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Old 20th December 2017, 23:56   #795
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I doubt an organisation that took Test cricket coverage away from tens of thousands of fans gives a hoot what they prefer....especially whilst its home product continues to rake it in.
90 to buy the cheapest tickets v India at Lords next year. I think I'll pass.
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Old 21st December 2017, 00:19   #796
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Apart from Smith there is very little difference between these two batting units.
The whole point you seem to be overlooking. You seem to think a team that loses 6 for 30 on a batting highway suddenly turn into Jack Hobbs when the ball darts around. Unlikely.

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Australia have lost 4 consecutive series in England, and when the ball moves around the matches are not generally that close.
They've generally been competitive series though. They haven't been close to the whitewashes, especially the one sided series we had here last time. When the pitches have been doctored for England and they have won the toss, some matches have been one sided. Fair enough. While our inexperienced quicks were quite poor when the ball started moving around last time (and in general), I wouldn't count on that happening regularly. If we win the toss England's batsmen will struggle too. Looking forward to that, no doubt they'll try it again when they feel desperate and eventually lose the toss.
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Old 21st December 2017, 00:28   #797
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The whole point you seem to be overlooking. You seem to think a team that loses 6 for 30 on a batting highway suddenly turn into Jack Hobbs when the ball darts around. Unlikely.



They've generally been competitive series though. They haven't been close to the whitewashes, especially the one sided series we had here last time. When the pitches have been doctored for England and they have won the toss, some matches have been one sided. Fair enough. While our inexperienced quicks were quite poor when the ball started moving around last time (and in general), I wouldn't count on that happening regularly. If we win the toss England's batsmen will struggle too. Looking forward to that, no doubt they'll try it again when they feel desperate and eventually lose the toss.
If the teams are similarly balanced in 2019 and England prepare similarly seam/swing friendly wickets, the toss won't matter that much. Yes, it wasn't a 5-0 in 2015 but in the four lives matches before England won, Australia's batting was pathetic in all but the Lords test.

I was there at day one Trent Bridge, it was abysmal stuff. Not competitive at all.
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Old 21st December 2017, 00:29   #798
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The whole point you seem to be overlooking. You seem to think a team that loses 6 for 30 on a batting highway suddenly turn into Jack Hobbs when the ball darts around. Unlikely.
Indeed. I think a lot of has had to do with Anderson and Broad being expert practitioners in those conditions as well, will either of them be there in 2019? Who would you fancy on a swinging deck; overton, roland-jones, woakes, ball or starc, hazelwood, cummins & or pattinson?
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Old 21st December 2017, 00:32   #799
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Is there any merit in releasing the captaincy from Root, who clearly wears it as a burden and isn't particularly good, and giving it to Bairstow?
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Old 21st December 2017, 01:19   #800
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If the teams are similarly balanced in 2019 and England prepare similarly seam/swing friendly wickets, the toss won't matter that much. Yes, it wasn't a 5-0 in 2015 but in the four lives matches before England won, Australia's batting was pathetic in all but the Lords test.
Yes it was pathetic. Our bowling was consistently poor also. Johnson and Starc are both well known for spraying them, going for plenty and getting wickets against the run of play. They should never be in the same team although we probably had little choice at the time. An inexperienced Hazlewood couldn't seem to find any other line than leg stump and was eventually replaced by an aging Siddle. But still, how does 3-2 sound? That's a very long way from 5-0.

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I was there at day one Trent Bridge, it was abysmal stuff. Not competitive at all.
Still, the original point that England shoulda coulda whitewashed Aus if but ... is a bit delusional. If they doctored 5 pitches with current team balance they would stand a good chance of losing the series depending on the toss. Look forward to them trying though, but the England hierarchy probably realise what a gamble it would be, which is probably why they only do it when they feel they have to.
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