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Old 23rd November 2016, 16:01   #321
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There is still a question mark against Smith and Kohli playing the swinging or seaming ball which there isn't against Root and Williamson, who also seem to be able to score runs in Asia. If I had to back my house on a batsman to score runs anywhere out of those four it would probably be Williamson.
Smith averages 43 in England, 67 in SA and 131 in New Zealand (not to mention 48* out of 85 at Hobart the other day) so just don't see how there is a question mark against his technique against swing & seam...?

Sure he might have failed in the absolutely most swinging conditions on the last England tour but I'm not sure how many batsmen would stand up to that level of scrutiny. E.g. Alastair Cook's record in India is brilliant and rightly praised but I doubt any of his 5 centuries have come on raging dustbowls.

As regards Asia, he averages 41 in SL, India & UAE combined. That's less than both Root (48) & Williamson (45), yes but hardly bad.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 16:34   #322
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You seem to be saying that when Smith is bad, he's bad, but when he's good he's very, very good. Damning with faint praise really. Not sure anyone has broken down Root, Kohli or Williamson's records by region , but we do seem to want to scrutinise Smith to this level. England fans probably struggle to respect Smith because of his ugly technique and that he was something of a joke among us when called up in that 2010/11 Ashes. Couldn't bat, couldn't bowl but Warney liked him as he was a good laugh in the dressing room, if I recall.
Really I was pointing out that criticising Smith for doing badly in England isn't accurate. That he didn't do well against top quality swing and seam with helpful conditions for the purveyors of such, in games where most of the rest of the Aussie batting basically got annihilated is hardly the same as him not being able to play in England. As pointed out by Cricket Guy, of course batsmen will do worse when conditions favour the bowlers, especially when those bowlers are as excellent as say Ashwin on dustbowls or Anderson and Broad on green tracks.

Worth pointing out that Smith got a couple of 30s on the slowish, lowish Cardiff surface.

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But isn't this the cricketing equivalent of ..."but can he do it on a freezing wet night at Stoke?" ... or is that still "... in a freezing North Easterly at the Riverside at the back end of April"?
Absolutely, yes, good post. Not just that but of course also an increasing (or reducing) sample size issue the more you break a player's record down.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 17:43   #323
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Absolutely, yes, good post. Not just that but of course also an increasing (or reducing) sample size issue the more you break a player's record down.
I noticed that, of the candidates, only Smith has played 9 or more Tests in a specific country other than his own so, yes, the sample size will be fairly piddly.

I guess when attempting to compare top players, a certain amount of statistical hole-picking is inevitable. It can sometimes, however, be a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing when raw stats lack context (such as your noting of Smith's brace of thirties on an unfamiliar track). Stats-only can also reinforce our subconscious prejudice that the greatest batsmen are better cricketers than the greatest bowlers.
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Old 9th December 2016, 06:00   #324
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How's this for a stat. In the last 3 years David Warner and Steve Smith have scored 42 centuries in all formats, which accounts for 56% of all of Australias tons. 4 years ago one was a bonehead slogger and the other a bits n pieces club cricketer.
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Old 9th December 2016, 07:41   #325
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How's this for a stat. In the last 3 years David Warner and Steve Smith have scored 42 centuries in all formats, which accounts for 56% of all of Australias tons. 4 years ago one was a bonehead slogger and the other a bits n pieces club cricketer.
Doesn't say much for their teammates over the past four years then.
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Old 10th December 2016, 18:42   #326
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Doesn't say much for their teammates over the past four years then.
List didn't include former players; but Clarke, Rogers and Hussey were rather good.
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Old 11th December 2016, 12:26   #327
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Tests

49 Tests 4669 runs at 60.63 HS215 17 100s 19 50s - Smith (27)
53 Tests 4594 runs at 52.80 HS254 11 100s 27 50s - Root (25)
14 Tests 959 runs at 50.47 HS129 2 100s 7 50s - de Kock (23)
53 Tests 4209 runs at 50.10 HS235 15 100s 14 50s - Kohli (28)
55 Tests 4593 runs at 49.92 HS242* 14 100s 24 50s - Williamson (26)

ODIs

176 ODIs 7570 runs at 52.93 HS183 26 100s 38 50s - Kohli
101 ODIs 3980 runs at 46.27 HS145* 8 100s 26 50s - Williamson
78 ODIs 3017 runs at 45.71 HS125 8 100s 17 50s - Root
69 ODIs 2850 runs at 43.84 HS178 11 100s 8 50s - de Kock
90 ODIs 2880 runs at 42.98 HS164 7 100s 15 50s - Smith

20/20s

45 20/20s 1657 runs at 57.13 HS90* 16 50s - Kohli
21 20/20s 600 runs at 37.50 HS90* 4 50s - Root
35 20/20s 967 runs at 34.53 HS72* 5 50s - Williamson
29 20/20s 742 runs at 29.68 HS52 1 50 - de Kock
30 20/20s 431 runs at 21.55 HS90 2 50s - Smith

Kohli has jumped above de Kock and Williamson with his double hundred, bringing his Test average over 50.

Last edited by 1000yardstare : 30th December 2016 at 01:15.
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Old 11th December 2016, 14:33   #328
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Boy that's alot of 50s by Root. If he could convert better he'd be streaks ahead. Glad that De Kock is now in the conversation. Won't be surprised if he manages Sangakara like stats (whilst remaining keeper) by the finish of his career. Think he'll eventually open in all formats.
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Old 11th December 2016, 20:15   #329
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Boy that's alot of 50s by Root. If he could convert better he'd be streaks ahead. Glad that De Kock is now in the conversation. Won't be surprised if he manages Sangakara like stats (whilst remaining keeper) by the finish of his career. Think he'll eventually open in all formats.
That's what's so annoying about Root. If it wasn't for his mental issues, whatever they are, when he gets to between about 60 and 90, he could easily be the best batsman in the world. He's still young enough to make that step up - Kohli is only now starting to do that and he's a few years older - but it doesn't seem to be getting any better yet.
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Old 11th December 2016, 20:39   #330
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That's what's so annoying about Root. If it wasn't for his mental issues, whatever they are, when he gets to between about 60 and 90, he could easily be the best batsman in the world. He's still young enough to make that step up - Kohli is only now starting to do that and he's a few years older - but it doesn't seem to be getting any better yet.
Maybe it's an English thing - Atherton, Stewart, Hussain, Thorpe, Bell...
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Old 12th December 2016, 06:07   #331
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It is even more exasperating because Root seems the most fluent batsman among his contemporaries. He almost always seems in control, and there are hardly any ugly shots that he play, but he definitely is the most vulnerable when between 60 and 90.
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Old 12th December 2016, 08:56   #332
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It is even more exasperating because Root seems the most fluent batsman among his contemporaries. He almost always seems in control, and there are hardly any ugly shots that he play, but he definitely is the most vulnerable when between 60 and 90.
I remember Cook had a period in 2009/10 when he always seemed to get out in the 60s. Then he scored a century v Pakistan in 2010 and went on a pretty remarkable streak.
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Old 12th December 2016, 11:22   #333
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As pointed out by Cricket Guy, of course batsmen will do worse when conditions favour the bowlers, especially when those bowlers are as excellent as say Ashwin on dustbowls or Anderson and Broad on green tracks.
One of the amusing things is that the Trent Bridge 2015 wicket wasn't a green track. Just as, I think it's fair to say, that the Mumbai track England have just been destroyed on was hardly a bunsen! Batting is so much about what's going on in your head.
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Old 12th December 2016, 17:11   #334
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There are over one thousand runs scored in the first two innings of the match, so hardly a minefield.
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Old 16th December 2016, 21:08   #335
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I remember Cook had a period in 2009/10 when he always seemed to get out in the 60s. Then he scored a century v Pakistan in 2010 and went on a pretty remarkable streak.
I think a lot, quite possibly all of it, is just data fluctuation. You could bat in exactly the same way, even against the same bowlers in the same conditions (experimentally speaking obviously, as you couldn't really do so) and you'd get runs of failing to convert scores and runs of huge scores which might look like things were different when really they weren't.
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Old 19th December 2016, 16:12   #336
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Karun has gone from averaging below ten to over a hundred in one innings. Is he a late bloomer, he's 25 and only played 39 first class matches.
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Old 19th December 2016, 21:19   #337
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Or you don't understand how averages work and how they can be skewed early doors. One or the other.
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Old 19th December 2016, 21:20   #338
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That's not to say he won't be a good batsman by the way. He could. That's the joy of cricket isn't it? Not judging a player by their early returns and then writing them off. Imagine doing that for a player like Steve Smith...
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Old 19th December 2016, 21:46   #339
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That's not to say he won't be a good batsman by the way. He could. That's the joy of cricket isn't it? Not judging a player by their early returns and then writing them off. Imagine doing that for a player like Steve Smith...
perhaps better to reserve judgement on him until he makes a score without umpteen let offs.
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Old 19th December 2016, 21:50   #340
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Or you don't understand how averages work and how they can be skewed early doors. One or the other.
The fact that they can be skewed early on was the point I was making, so not sure why I got the snappy response (if you were responding to me). Similar to how Woakes was averaging 70 at the start of the summer and got that down to the low 20s earlier in the summer.

And 39 FC games isn't many for a 25 year old, which is what I meant when asking if he was a late bloomer.
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