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Old 23rd January 2010, 19:17   #241
southwood
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Quote:
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He's a Convict though, isn't he? Because they have only 6 first class teams, it takes longer to force your way into the state team, and then when you get in, there aren't as many games to play as in England.
Most of those have been in the CC .His 1st class debut was only 7/8 years ago and he has been with Durham since 2005.
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Old 24th January 2010, 01:01   #242
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Most of those have been in the CC .His 1st class debut was only 7/8 years ago and he has been with Durham since 2005.
It may just be my imagination but there do seem to be relatively many Aussies floating around the upper echelons of the first class game and even occasionally breaking into test sides who didn't make state teams much if at all until they were well, well into their twenties. Just off the top of my head I can think of Clark, Pattinson (who is admittedly total rubbish) and Thorp and I think Hauritz, McGain and maybe one or two other Aussies spinners (if you can use the term) were late starters too.
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Old 24th January 2010, 13:25   #243
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think there were 25 Aussies in cc last year.More than youd think
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Old 28th February 2010, 16:50   #244
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Well how about this then.

No overseas player,no kolpaks.

Will Smith had revealed that Durham will field their strongest XI in the CC despite the ECB incentives to pack the team with youngsters.

That shows the determination to win a hat trick of titles and will be appreciated by those who value real cricket.

The younger players will get their chance in the shorter form games.

No doubt there will be detractors but this all fits with the Durham policy of developing their own players properly.

Geoff Cook is probably the most experienced,and respected, Director of Crocket in the English(and Welsh) game both for his knowledge of the game and his ability to forge a blend of good young local players with the experience of the senior players bought in from o'seas and Somerset.he has also , so far, produced teams that have won 3 major 1st class trophies in as many years.


"In the four-day game, meanwhile, Smith does not foresee any break with the tradition of picking the strongest side, irrespective of the ECB’s new financial incentives to select young players.

There will be £2,000 on offer for each player aged under 22 in Championship games and £1,600 for those under 26, up to a maximum of five.

But Smith said: “I’m always of the opinion that we should play our best side and it would be foolish to go down the road of selecting youngsters just to benefit financially. That breaks away from the traditional values of the game.

“We want to win every game and if we pulled off the hat-trick of Championship titles it would be amazing. Yorkshire were the last to do it and that was over 40 years ago, which shows what an achievement it would be.”

A third CC title will be a really tremendous achievement,esp since they are going to attempt it without an o'seas player, or Kolpaks, while other Counties have signed up strong looking line ups,if they remain fit. It will be a very interesting season and a real test of 'The Durham Way'.
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Old 28th February 2010, 17:36   #245
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So no Benkenstein?

And whilst he doesn't class as an overseas player or Kolpak, playing Di Venuto is just exploiting a different loop-hole.
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Old 28th February 2010, 19:19   #246
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think there were 25 Aussies in cc last year.More than youd think
I made it 25 plus Paul Horton and Tim Ambrose who moved to Britain in their teens and took their first steps into the pro game over here.

Source
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Old 28th February 2010, 19:35   #247
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I made it 25 plus Paul Horton and Tim Ambrose who moved to Britain in their teens and took their first steps into the pro game over here.

Source
I've seen that - thats where I got the 25 from!. A great piece of research - and a lot of work Id imagine.
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Old 28th February 2010, 20:00   #248
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Where did you get the idea that Benkenstein was a Kolpak? - he qualifies through residence. He may have been a K'pak when he first came but that was a long time ago.A bit like Murray Goodwin at Sussex and did not slip under the radar like Rudolph.

Durham have not had Kolpaks for a couple of years.They may have several players who were not born in the UK but ,apart from Di Venuto ( EU passport), most have a least one British parent and a British passport.

I think the only other exception is Ben Stokes who was born in NZ of NZ parents but has residential quals because he has lived in the UK for several years.
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Old 28th February 2010, 21:18   #249
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Rey

Where did you get the idea that Benkenstein was a Kolpak? - he qualifies through residence.
Well, you know, the whole 'being South African' thing. An easy mistake to make.

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He may have been a K'pak when he first came but that was a long time ago.A bit like Murray Goodwin at Sussex and did not slip under the radar like Rudolph.
Has Goodwin actually qualified? I thought that was still up in the air. He was certainly still a Kolpak going into 2009.

'Slip under the radar like Rudolph'? You make it sound like we forced him to wear a fake mustache to get him through customs.

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Durham have not had Kolpaks for a couple of years.They may have several players who were not born in the UK but ,apart from Di Venuto ( EU passport), most have a least one British parent and a British passport.

I think the only other exception is Ben Stokes who was born in NZ of NZ parents but has residential quals because he has lived in the UK for several years.
Yes that's all very well, but whether you've had Kolpaks or not, in the past few seasons you've definitely had plenty of free overseas players, whatever pigeonhole they fall into. And next year, you're still going to have Benkenstein and Di Venuto providing a lot of your runs. Making the last paragraph of what you posted above not quite as impressive as it sounds.
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Old 28th February 2010, 22:34   #250
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Rey,

Do keep up!

"If you do not have a European passport, you can earn a 2010 work permit only if you have been with the same county for four years – such as Charl Willoughby with Somerset or Murray Goodwin with Sussex no problem there then." as repoted in Wisden Cricketer in Dec 09.

It is the likes of Langeveldt,MacLaren, Dwayne Smith,Van der Wath and Rikki Wessells that have fallen foul of the new regs .

The 'radar' comment about Rudolph is quite apt really.He, theoretically, breached the Kolpak regs, at the time he was signed,but the EwCB were advised that it there was no guarantee of enforcing the reg if there was an appeal and it would be very costly. He, now, only just makes the cut as he qualifies from the 5 Tests he has played in the last 5 years and,by the end of 2010, should have the necessary residential period of qualification. If he had come in through customs with a fake moustache he would have been deported by now!!!!

To have come from being a Minor county via the wooden spoon level,to win back to back CC's 17years and produce 3 current England players, on the way, is quite impressive.The current crop of 'foreign' born have assisted in the development of the good quality cricket and players at the club and Geoff Cook is intending/expecting home grown players to fill their positions in 2 years time.
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Old 28th February 2010, 23:24   #251
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Rey,

Do keep up!

"If you do not have a European passport, you can earn a 2010 work permit only if you have been with the same county for four years – such as Charl Willoughby with Somerset or Murray Goodwin with Sussex no problem there then." as repoted in Wisden Cricketer in Dec 09.
Have you got a link for this? I'm always open to reading something that might help me understand this stuff.

Is the quote implying that Goodwin and Willoughby have qualified to play for England? That's what you're saying, but the quote doesn't really say that. Presumably they must have, otherwise they'd have been kicked out along with Van der Wath and Wessels.

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It is the likes of Langeveldt,MacLaren, Dwayne Smith,Van der Wath and Rikki Wessells that have fallen foul of the new regs .
Well Dwayne Smith, Langeveldt and McLaren have both played international cricket for SA in the last few months, so presumably they could 'go Kolpak' again next year if they wanted to quit international cricket again.

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The 'radar' comment about Rudolph is quite apt really.He, theoretically, breached the Kolpak regs, at the time he was signed,but the EwCB were advised that it there was no guarantee of enforcing the reg if there was an appeal and it would be very costly. He, now, only just makes the cut as he qualifies from the 5 Tests he has played in the last 5 years and,by the end of 2010, should have the necessary residential period of qualification. If he had come in through customs with a fake moustache he would have been deported by now!!!!
So not quite 'under the radar', more like in plain sight of the radar, flicking a V-sign in the ECB's direction. I didn't quite get your metaphor, was all.

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To have come from being a Minor county via the wooden spoon level,to win back to back CC's 17years and produce 3 current England players, on the way, is quite impressive.The current crop of 'foreign' born have assisted in the development of the good quality cricket and players at the club and Geoff Cook is intending/expecting home grown players to fill their positions in 2 years time.
No problems with that at all.

What I did take umbrage over was that winning a third title without an official overseas player or Kolpak would be a great achievement, ignoring the help that Benkenstein and Di Venuto will provide. It reminded me strongly of this article by Mr Brett on the Beeb.
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Old 28th February 2010, 23:58   #252
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I'm a big fan of what Durham have achieved, in what has been a relatively short time. But their batting averages last season speak for themselves.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cric...es/default.stm
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Old 1st March 2010, 00:48   #253
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I'm a big fan of what Durham have achieved, in what has been a relatively short time. But their batting averages last season speak for themselves.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cric...es/default.stm
True, but it part-mitigation should be pointed out that England nabbed their best batsman.
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Old 1st March 2010, 19:06   #254
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Rey

Here is the link
http://wisdencricketer.com/item.php?...=2&item_id=619

On the basis that a side has ,generally,to take 20 wickets to win a CC match it is the locally produced bowlers that are mainly responsible for the success have of the last 3 years, except for Gibsons outstanding 2nd half of the 2007 season burst.

Last season Durham's 'other ' players ie those whose formative education was outside the UK ,contributed 40% of the runs.

80% of the wkts were taken by 'home' players- the highest in the CC according to Wisden Cricketer( Neville Scott).

The contributions by Benkenstein and Di Venuto are cleary significant but since they are batsmen they are doing their job.

The batsmen are emerging thanks to the coaching,example and attitude of those who have been brought in from elsewhere.

If 'other' players in the other CC teams had been as well supported by home players , as much, in a well balanced team then Durham would not have had such success last season.

I still maintain that a 3rd successive title will be a tremendous acheivement ,I make no claims for it being 'great'.That will be reserved for a title won by solely 'home' players.
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Old 1st March 2010, 19:31   #255
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Rey,

A better explanation is Stewart Ragan's post on White rose in relation to Rudolph's status text below.

Dear all,

Please see the new criteria for overseas players / Kolpaks in 2010:



Player-only Governing Body Endorsements (formerly work permits) will be required for individuals seeking employment at the 18 First-Class Counties in order to register and participate in any of the First Class County 1st or 2nd Xl competitions. Those individuals must meet one of the following criteria:



a. The cricketer must have played a minimum of one Test Match during the 24 months immediately prior to the date of the Governing Body Endorsement application or 5 Test Matches during the 60 months immediately prior to the date of the Governing Body Endorsement application for his country who must be a Full Member Country of the ICC (Full Members are Australia, Bangladesh, India, New Zealand, Pakistan, South Africa, Sri Lanka, West Indies and Zimbabwe as well as the ECB) which were approved and recorded by the ICC as authorised Test Matches (consisting of five days); or



b. During the 24 months immediately prior to the date of the Governing Body Endorsement application the cricketer must have played in at least fifteen One Day Internationals and/or International Twenty20 matches for his country (who must be a Full Member Country of the ICC) which were approved and recorded as authorised matches by the ICC ;or



c. Be currently centrally contracted to the Cricket Board of the cricketers home country and in the current or most recent Test Match or One Day International team squad where the home country is a Full Member Country of the ICC); or



d. Was granted a work permit as a player-only in 2006, 2007 and 2008 and the new Tier 2 Player Only Governing Body Endorsement in 2009



Effectively Jacques Rudolph is covered for this coming season, 2010, by nature of clause a) i.e. 5 Test Matches in the last 60 months as he played Test Cricket for SA in 2006. However, it means that post-2010 he will be accepted only if the ECB roll forward the content of clause d (i.e. it becomes 2007, 2008 and Endorsements in 2009 and 2010). This has been flagged by Yorkshire CCC to the Governing Body and a formal response is awaited. The informal feedback has been encouraging.

Regards
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Old 1st March 2010, 20:25   #256
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I’d say Durham’s, deserved, success comes from a combination of a group of gifted local seamers coming through at the same time, some astute signings, and an ability to get more from journeyman players than their previous counties did.

The production of an attack like Harmison, Onions, Davies and Plunkett happens occasionally, perhaps more often than people think. In the run up to Yorkshire's last Championship in 2001, we saw Gough, Hoggard, Silverwood, Sidebottom, Hutchinson, White and Hamilton all coming through at roughly the same time. A few years back Lancashire had Flintoff, Chapple, Anderson, Mahmood, Cork to choose from. There will be other examples, but these are the ones that came to mind first.

It’s the signings to go with this attack that have made Durham so strong. The embarrassment of bowling riches that Lancashire and Yorkshire had a few years back only resulted in a single Championship between them, as neither had quite the same batting depth to match. Durham on the other hand has made some smart signings in Benkenstein, Di Venuto, Smith and Blackwell. Between them they scored well over half Durham’s runs last year and 14 out of 19 centuries. Without them where would Durham be?

It’ll be interesting to see if Durham can get the hat-trick of titles – I think they will, as I can’t see a side to challenge them over the course of an entire summer – but even more interesting to see if they can sustain their success in the long term. That will depend on them having found a way to bring through local seamers that starts a production line, rather than just them enjoying a ‘golden generation’ of quicks. They’ll also need to start unearthing some more local batsmen to compliment Paul Collingwood.

For England’s sake I hope they can do both.
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Old 1st March 2010, 20:28   #257
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80% of the wkts were taken by 'home' players- the highest in the CC according to Wisden Cricketer( Neville Scott).
He may have got his sums wrong there. 77% of Durhams CC wickets last year where taken by players who learnt the game in this country. 85% of Yorkshire's were taken by players who came through their own academy. I've not checked other counties.
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Old 1st March 2010, 20:46   #258
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He may have got his sums wrong there. 77% of Durhams CC wickets last year where taken by players who learnt the game in this country. 85% of Yorkshire's were taken by players who came through their own academy. I've not checked other counties.
aye ....and nearly 150% of all our statistics are 125% biased.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 10:48   #259
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The good thing about Durham's selection of their non-residential players is that they are all performers. There are a number of cases where players have come from overseas to join the county circuit and just been happy to take the money. Durham have the balance right and it is unlikley they will be making any major signings before the start of the season. Apart from the fact they have one of the highest wage bills, there is really no need to sign anyone.

A lot will depend on the weather for the hat-trick. It helped us last season. As for the stats - I don't worry too much about them. I've seen plenty of cricket to know good performances from bad. There were one or two weak links last season - Stoneman being one of them although hopefully a year on and his spell in Australia this winter will have helped him mature into a decent opener.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 12:43   #260
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I cant see anybody getting near you again, sorry to say. But if anyone is going to dominate, Im glad its Durham.
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