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Old 24th March 2010, 13:52   #1141
Michelle Fivefer
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But if the likes of Sehwag, Gayle and Harbhajan are in there? They'd be better with a top 5, frankly. Genuine all-rounders are a dying breed.
Yes, good point, looks like they are just trying to make up the numbers. But Sehwag at least does have a bowling average lower than his batting average.
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Old 24th March 2010, 13:54   #1142
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Swann's offically an all rounder then? GBG will be pleased.

As far as stats go, he does average better with bat and ball than Flintoff did in Tests though.
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Old 24th March 2010, 14:03   #1143
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'MF befuddled by rankings' shock
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Old 24th March 2010, 14:08   #1144
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'MF befuddled by rankings' shock
I think confusion may be justified in the case of the ratings for "all-rounders". If they are just getting rated for their actual performance in each match, be it batting or bowling, how is the all-rounder element calculated?
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Old 24th March 2010, 14:54   #1145
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Stick to the MVP rankings Michelle - they're far more useful than the ICC nonsense.
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Old 24th March 2010, 18:18   #1146
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I think confusion may be justified in the case of the ratings for "all-rounders". If they are just getting rated for their actual performance in each match, be it batting or bowling, how is the all-rounder element calculated?
All-rounder rating = (batting rating * bowling rating) /1000
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Old 24th March 2010, 18:32   #1147
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All-rounder rating = (batting rating * bowling rating) /1000
Thanks! Not that I'm now capable of working that out.

Hang on, I was being too modest. I just did and got it right!
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Old 25th March 2010, 09:33   #1148
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But if the likes of Sehwag, Gayle and Harbhajan are in there? They'd be better with a top 5, frankly. Genuine all-rounders are a dying breed.
Not so much a dying breed but an intermittent presence at the highest level of the game. In the early 80's there was Imran, Kapil Dev, Botham, Hadlee (even though he was more of a bowling all-rounder) but then there was a bit of a lull. The 90's didn't much produce an all-rounder the closest there was probably happened to be Akram who was far more a bolwer who could be handy with the willow. Someone who is at or close to international class in two disciplines is a rarity. Kallis and Vettori are genuine entries, Vettori has become ridiculously valuable to his team with the bat. Al Hasan is probably short of true test match class in both disciplines, though is a useful cricketer nonetheless.
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Old 25th March 2010, 09:46   #1149
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Not so much a dying breed but an intermittent presence at the highest level of the game. In the early 80's there was Imran, Kapil Dev, Botham, Hadlee (even though he was more of a bowling all-rounder) but then there was a bit of a lull. The 90's didn't much produce an all-rounder the closest there was probably happened to be Akram who was far more a bolwer who could be handy with the willow. Someone who is at or close to international class in two disciplines is a rarity. Kallis and Vettori are genuine entries, Vettori has become ridiculously valuable to his team with the bat. Al Hasan is probably short of true test match class in both disciplines, though is a useful cricketer nonetheless.
All valid points, but I think you're seeing the future of all-rounders in the sense that they won't be genuine quicks any more. Gone, I suspect, are the days of an all-rounder bowling upwards of 81-82mph. The "genuine" all-rounders of the future will be spinners or medium-pacers. The amount of cricket played means that a Flintoff just won't have the longevity that the Bothams and Imrans of this world had.

Saying that, there will be many more bowlers who are useful with the willow, a la Broad, Swann, Johnson, Steyn. These will be the all-rounders of the future. Indeed, they are the all-rounders of the present, as the ICC rankings show.

Shakib may be a little short of being true test class right now, but he's young. He may yet get there. The other who might be close to full all-rounder status is Dwayne Bravo.
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Old 25th March 2010, 09:46   #1150
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Not so much a dying breed but an intermittent presence at the highest level of the game. In the early 80's there was Imran, Kapil Dev, Botham, Hadlee (even though he was more of a bowling all-rounder) but then there was a bit of a lull. The 90's didn't much produce an all-rounder the closest there was probably happened to be Akram who was far more a bolwer who could be handy with the willow. Someone who is at or close to international class in two disciplines is a rarity. Kallis and Vettori are genuine entries, Vettori has become ridiculously valuable to his team with the bat. Al Hasan is probably short of true test match class in both disciplines, though is a useful cricketer nonetheless.
Shakib is currently 12th* in the bowling rankings, listed between Broad and Anderson and a few places above Vettori, so you might to rethink that. He is also 37th in the batting, just below Haddin and Watson.

* Considering that Ntini and Clark are still listed in the top 10, but unlikely to ever play Test cricket again, he's basically already a top 10 bowler.
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Old 25th March 2010, 09:49   #1151
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Shakib is currently 12th* in the bowling rankings, listed between Broad and Anderson and a few places above Vettori, so you might to rethink that. He is also 37th in the batting, just below Haddin and Watson.

* Considering that Ntini and Clark are still listed in the top 10, but unlikely to ever play Test cricket again, he's basically already a top 10 bowler.
I wasn't that impressed with his bowling to be honest. Tidy and put some decent revs but lacked the variety and guile I think necessary to have a long successful career. His stats hold up after having done very well against the windies third xi. I don't see him being a big threat against all comers with the ball.
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Old 25th March 2010, 09:54   #1152
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I wasn't that impressed with his bowling to be honest. Tidy and put some decent revs but lacked the variety and guile I think necessary to have a long successful career. His stats hold up after having done very well against the windies third xi. I don't see him being a big threat against all comers with the ball.
He's already taken a big step forward with the ball, but guile and variety are things he can learn, with time, experience and the right guidance. The action is there and thats the starting point.
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Old 25th March 2010, 09:56   #1153
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He's already taken a big step forward with the ball, but guile and variety are things he can learn, with time, experience and the right guidance. The action is there and thats the starting point.
To me I thought he was a bit too round arm and didn't put enough body and didn't quite have enough of a pivot to really get maximum returns. He is still young but looked more of a grind them bowler, a sort of deluxe version of Paul Harris if you like.
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Old 25th March 2010, 10:15   #1154
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To me I thought he was a bit too round arm and didn't put enough body and didn't quite have enough of a pivot to really get maximum returns. He is still young but looked more of a grind them bowler, a sort of deluxe version of Paul Harris if you like.
i.e. world beater
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Old 25th March 2010, 10:20   #1155
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i.e. world beater
Panel beater more like. I just knew you would respond to that comment so I had, just had to make it!
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Old 25th March 2010, 12:00   #1156
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i.e. world beater
That certainly would be the deluxe version rather than the standard version.
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Old 25th March 2010, 12:04   #1157
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Shakib is currently 12th* in the bowling rankings, listed between Broad and Anderson and a few places above Vettori, so you might to rethink that. He is also 37th in the batting, just below Haddin and Watson.

* Considering that Ntini and Clark are still listed in the top 10, but unlikely to ever play Test cricket again, he's basically already a top 10 bowler.
Whilst that might make him effectively a top 10 bowler, you've got to ask what the value of being top 10 is when that categorises him alongside two bowlers who are unlikely to ever play Test cricket again.
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Old 25th March 2010, 12:19   #1158
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Not so much a dying breed but an intermittent presence at the highest level of the game. In the early 80's there was Imran, Kapil Dev, Botham, Hadlee (even though he was more of a bowling all-rounder) but then there was a bit of a lull. The 90's didn't much produce an all-rounder the closest there was probably happened to be Akram who was far more a bolwer who could be handy with the willow. Someone who is at or close to international class in two disciplines is a rarity. Kallis and Vettori are genuine entries, Vettori has become ridiculously valuable to his team with the bat. Al Hasan is probably short of true test match class in both disciplines, though is a useful cricketer nonetheless.
Brian Macmillan. I think he averaged 40 with the bat and 30 with the ball. He was part of SA's top 6 batting and one of a 4 bowler attack.
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Old 25th March 2010, 12:22   #1159
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Brian Macmillan. I think he averaged 40 with the bat and 30 with the ball. He was part of SA's top 6 batting and one of a 4 bowler attack.
I likes him he had quite a bit about him though his best years were when you guys were getting back into tests. Good player, though perhaps bowled too short to be that effective. Similar to Flintoff in that respect. Better batsman though.
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Old 25th March 2010, 18:41   #1160
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Whilst that might make him effectively a top 10 bowler, you've got to ask what the value of being top 10 is when that categorises him alongside two bowlers who are unlikely to ever play Test cricket again.
Silly argument.

It's not that Ntini or Clark were rubbish, it's just that they are unlikely to ever play again because of a combination of age, injuries and a fairly sharp decline, and that the rating system is a bit slow in removing players unless they explicitly retire. Players only get removed from the rankings 1 year after their last Test match IIRC.
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