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Old 9th February 2016, 09:40   #6001
slop
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It's funny how the now concluded debate around Bell's merits as an England player is a proxy for the now concluded debate about KP's return. As players, they always seemed to get on and certainly batted very well together on several occasions.
Including Man of the Series in England's only world cup win, which we were told repeatedly was a significant thing
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Old 9th February 2016, 10:21   #6002
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Including Man of the Series in England's only world cup win, which we were told repeatedly was a significant thing
Yup. He was brilliant until 2010. Anyone who debates this is a fool.

Whether he will ever win a domestic t20 competition is yet to be seen.
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Old 9th February 2016, 11:30   #6003
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...Afterall, he's England's most successful team player ever. ...
How does one measure such a thing? Perhaps, one doesn't because one can't. Perhaps it's just bluster.
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Old 9th February 2016, 13:57   #6004
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How does one measure such a thing? Perhaps, one doesn't because one can't. Perhaps it's just bluster.
By looking at all the things England's won with him in the side - 4 Ashes series, a World Cup, a test series in India, no. 1 ranked team in the world etc etc etc

Has there been a more successful England player? Certainly not in the modern era when cricket has been more than Eng v Aus.


Unless you want to argue for Stuart Broad?

The proof is in the pudding.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 14:03   #6005
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
By looking at all the things England's won with him in the side - 4 Ashes series, a World Cup, a test series in India, no. 1 ranked team in the world etc etc etc

Has there been a more successful England player? Certainly not in the modern era when cricket has been more than Eng v Aus.


Unless you want to argue for Stuart Broad?

The proof is in the pudding.
Bell won 5 Ashes series.

I think Broad trumps KP, as he has achieved everything he has plus a series win in SA.
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Old 9th February 2016, 14:07   #6006
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How does one measure such a thing? Perhaps, one doesn't because one can't. Perhaps it's just bluster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
By looking at all the things England's won with him in the side - 4 Ashes series, a World Cup, a test series in India, no. 1 ranked team in the world etc etc etc

Has there been a more successful England player? Certainly not in the modern era when cricket has been more than Eng v Aus.


Unless you want to argue for Stuart Broad?

The proof is in the pudding.
I suspected it was merely coincidence based bluster - nothing measureable there at all.
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Old 9th February 2016, 16:39   #6007
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Bell won 5 Ashes series.

I think Broad trumps KP, as he has achieved everything he has plus a series win in SA.
Bell has never won a World Cup.

And not for the lack of opportunities.


Would be interested in D/L's take on whether Pietersen or Broad is England's most successful team player.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 16:49   #6008
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Bell has never won a World Cup.

And not for the lack of opportunities.


Would be interested in D/L's take on whether Pietersen or Broad is England's most successful team player.
Bell never won a World Cup, but he more Ashes wins to his name than Pietersen. The World Cup was a T20, which doesn't hold as much weight as a traditional World Cup. I would put it on par with an Ashes win.

In a few years time, this will all be irrelevant as Cook will go on to cement his place as England's finest batsman of all time.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:10   #6009
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Bell never won a World Cup, but he more Ashes wins to his name than Pietersen. The World Cup was a T20, which doesn't hold as much weight as a traditional World Cup. I would put it on par with an Ashes win.

In a few years time, this will all be irrelevant as Cook will go on to cement his place as England's finest batsman of all time.
http://www.cricketarchive.com/Archiv...g_Average.html

LOL! You can make a fairly reasonable case over the last 5 and a bit but as I have said for a fair while Mr JE Root has clearly been a better player for the last couple of years. Superior all round batsmanship for one and far more of a player you would pay to watch.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:14   #6010
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I had to scroll down quite a bit to find 'the greatest team player of his generation.' Cook will have a column all to himself when he passes the 10k mark.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:21   #6011
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Bell never won a World Cup, but he more Ashes wins to his name than Pietersen. The World Cup was a T20, which doesn't hold as much weight as a traditional World Cup. I would put it on par with an Ashes win.
When you say "to his name", I take it you already realised he averaged 17, 28 and 27 in 3 of those Ashes.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:22   #6012
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Bell has never won a World Cup.

And not for the lack of opportunities.


Would be interested in D/L's take on whether Pietersen or Broad is England's most successful team player.
Nor did a single other England player in the history of one-day cricket playing ODIs and not t20s.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:27   #6013
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When you say "to his name", I take it you already realised he averaged 17, 28 and 27 in 3 of those Ashes.
I never knew you had to average above a certain amount of runs to get a series winners medal.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:27   #6014
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I had to scroll down quite a bit to find 'the greatest team player of his generation.' Cook will have a column all to himself when he passes the 10k mark.
It wasn't about him (Pietersen) by the way, but I note the obvious chip on your shoulder about Cook. He will be the record run scorer and he will be England's record test cap by the end of this year, and he will hold that record for a few years, but he is not in the top 5 batsmen who've played for England in my lifetime.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:27   #6015
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Bell never won a World Cup, but he more Ashes wins to his name than Pietersen. The World Cup was a T20, which doesn't hold as much weight as a traditional World Cup. I would put it on par with an Ashes win.

In a few years time, this will all be irrelevant as Cook will go on to cement his place as England's finest batsman of all time.
Bell has also been a Man of the Series in the Ashes, something never achieved by Pietersen.

I agree, Cook will go on to achieve more than most other batsmen. Whether that makes him England's finest batsman is another question. He's mostly a run machine. And it won't be too long perhaps before Cook is overtaken by Root in terms of record run scoring.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:29   #6016
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I had to scroll down quite a bit to find 'the greatest team player of his generation.' Cook will have a column all to himself when he passes the 10k mark.
What do we mean by 'greatest team player' exactly?
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:33   #6017
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Bell has also been a Man of the Series in the Ashes, something never achieved by Pietersen.

I agree, Cook will go on to achieve more than most other batsmen. Whether that makes him England's finest batsman is another question. He's mostly a run machine. And it won't be too long perhaps before Cook is overtaken by Root in terms of record run scoring.
You might be surprised to see this coming from me, but I rate Bell's performance in the 2013 home series as superior to Cook's. 2010/11. I suspect that the averages don't support me, but the fact was that all bar Collingwood in the Cook series all cashed in at various points in the series. In 2013 Bell nigh on played a lone hand in a series where nearly all of England's batsmen were in poor form or found out by a high quality Australian attack. In 2010/11 the bowlers had usually done their job or they were playing in more clement conditions against an Australian attack that was rather shambolic with a silly spinner's pick and the likes of Hilfenhaus, Bollinger bowling garbage and Mitch out of sorts bar Perth. It is something that possibly won't be agreed with by too many, but I'll stand by it.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:34   #6018
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It wasn't about him (Pietersen) by the way, but I note the obvious chip on your shoulder about Cook. He will be the record run scorer and he will be England's record test cap by the end of this year, and he will hold that record for a few years, but he is not in the top 5 batsmen who've played for England in my lifetime.
I don't have a chip about Cook. I just find it funny that most discussions always lead to Cook being accused of being two faced or a weak link in the team. I just hold the mainstream view that he's a great player and a great bloke, while others like to invent theories about him being some sort of machiavellian figure.

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What do we mean by 'greatest team player' exactly?
I don't know. Just another way to say Pietersen's achievements weigh heavier than anyone else's I suppose.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:36   #6019
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Bell never won a World Cup, but he more Ashes wins to his name than Pietersen. The World Cup was a T20, which doesn't hold as much weight as a traditional World Cup. I would put it on par with an Ashes win.

In a few years time, this will all be irrelevant as Cook will go on to cement his place as England's finest batsman of all time.
The only thing in cement is Cook's footwork.

A T20 world cup is huge, but it'll take you another decade or so to realise that, like with the way you want to play a 90s form of ODI cricket.

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Nor did a single other England player in the history of one-day cricket playing ODIs and not t20s.
So what you're saying is that Pietersen is really, really special?

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What do we mean by 'greatest team player' exactly?
The one who has achieved the most team success.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 17:39   #6020
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The only thing in cement is Cook's footwork.

A T20 world cup is huge, but it'll take you another decade or so to realise that, like with the way you want to play a 90s form of ODI cricket.
Nearly 10,000 and no footwork, what a fantastic timer of the ball he must be.
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