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Old 9th February 2016, 18:42   #6021
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Originally Posted by CDogg16 View Post
I never knew you had to average above a certain amount of runs to get a series winners medal.
But you knew that you do to get any credit. Which is more important than Collingwood's 2005 medal.
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Old 9th February 2016, 18:46   #6022
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Bell has also been a Man of the Series in the Ashes, something never achieved by Pietersen.
2013 was pretty special and would in itself make a good argument. "Winning" a series you don't perform in doesn't.
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Old 9th February 2016, 19:11   #6023
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The one who has achieved the most team success.
Ah. You mean that the games KP has played well in have produced more wins for England than other players have achieved? Are you including other teams, t20 franchises etc? How are you quantifying this?
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Old 9th February 2016, 19:34   #6024
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2013 was pretty special and would in itself make a good argument. "Winning" a series you don't perform in doesn't.
Pietersen averaged at least 38 in every Ashes series win.

Bell averaged at least 28 in less than half of his Ashes series wins.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 19:39   #6025
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Pietersen averaged at least 38 in every Ashes series win.

Bell averaged at least 28 in less than half of his Ashes series wins.
This isn't just about KP and Bell and not just about the Ashes. You say that KP was England's best team player. Details please?
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Old 9th February 2016, 20:03   #6026
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You might be surprised to see this coming from me, but I rate Bell's performance in the 2013 home series as superior to Cook's. 2010/11. I suspect that the averages don't support me, but the fact was that all bar Collingwood in the Cook series all cashed in at various points in the series. In 2013 Bell nigh on played a lone hand in a series where nearly all of England's batsmen were in poor form or found out by a high quality Australian attack. In 2010/11 the bowlers had usually done their job or they were playing in more clement conditions against an Australian attack that was rather shambolic with a silly spinner's pick and the likes of Hilfenhaus, Bollinger bowling garbage and Mitch out of sorts bar Perth. It is something that possibly won't be agreed with by too many, but I'll stand by it.
I agree, I think Bell's performance in that Ashes series was head and shoulders above anything that Cook has achieved. Personally, I'd put it higher than anything KP has achieved too. Simply awesome.
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Old 9th February 2016, 20:06   #6027
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What do we mean by 'greatest team player' exactly?
Great players do great things. England haven't had many greats whilst I've been watching - Botham, Willis, Gower, Gooch, Flintoff, Anderson and Pietersen. That's pretty much the lot.

Broad, Stokes and Root may someday join that club, we will have to see. Vaughan would have joined that club but for his dodgey knee. Same with Gough. Had Stewart not been lumbered with the wicketkeeping, he also might have been there too. Don't think I'm missing anyone.
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Old 9th February 2016, 20:14   #6028
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This isn't just about KP and Bell and not just about the Ashes. You say that KP was England's best team player. Details please?
T20 World Cup winner
4 Ashes wins
Team ranked no.1 in world
Won in India etc etc

Has there been a more successful England player?

Maybe Broad.

They're the only two who have won a World Title and been a test regular during a period of extended English success.

Hopefully Root, Stokes, Hales, Buttler, Moeen and Finn can join them starting with the forthcoming World Cup.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 20:19   #6029
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... Hopefully Root, Stokes, Hales, Buttler, Moeen and Finn can join them starting with the forthcoming World Cup.
The World Cup's 3 years away! Are you intending to refer to this silly "World T20" competition that Bangladesh are clearly going to win?
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Old 9th February 2016, 20:34   #6030
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The World Cup's 3 years away! Are you intending to refer to this silly "World T20" competition that Bangladesh are clearly going to win?
Whilst I like the Bond villian type idea of winning the World, I think the actual prize is a Cup. Admittedly it's a strange cup, but there appears to be a hollow bit into which Jos Buttler, Sam Billings, Jason Roy, Steven Finn, Ben Stokes etc could pour champagne in to drink out of.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 21:08   #6031
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Great players do great things. England haven't had many greats whilst I've been watching - Botham, Willis, Gower, Gooch, Flintoff, Anderson and Pietersen. That's pretty much the lot.

Broad, Stokes and Root may someday join that club, we will have to see. Vaughan would have joined that club but for his dodgey knee. Same with Gough. Had Stewart not been lumbered with the wicketkeeping, he also might have been there too. Don't think I'm missing anyone.
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
T20 World Cup winner
4 Ashes wins
Team ranked no.1 in world
Won in India etc etc

Has there been a more successful England player?

Maybe Broad.

They're the only two who have won a World Title and been a test regular during a period of extended English success.

Hopefully Root, Stokes, Hales, Buttler, Moeen and Finn can join them starting with the forthcoming World Cup.
This whole debate seems a bit pointless. It's a team game and every player who plays in a winning team contributes in some way. When England win I'm happy because England have won. I would never say 'I wouldn't mind losing today as long as so and so scores a ton.' The team wouldn't either.

Cabinboy, if you don't think Cook has been a great player, I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it.

GBG, nobody can say Pietersen hasn't had a massive impact on English cricket for the decade he was in the side. Sometimes he was crucial in England victories, sometimes he wasn't. At the end of the day, the history books will list his WC wins and Ashes victories, just as they will Bell. Bell, Cook and Pietersen have all been vital cogs in the England team over the last decade, and instead of arguing who was responsible for what, maybe it's better to accept its a team game and when one player fails, a team mate will be there to succeed. That is what great teams are built on after all.
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Old 9th February 2016, 21:19   #6032
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This whole debate seems a bit pointless. It's a team game and every player who plays in a winning team contributes in some way. When England win I'm happy because England have won. I would never say 'I wouldn't mind losing today as long as so and so scores a ton.' The team wouldn't either.

Cabinboy, if you don't think Cook has been a great player, I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it.

GBG, nobody can say Pietersen hasn't had a massive impact on English cricket for the decade he was in the side. Sometimes he was crucial in England victories, sometimes he wasn't. At the end of the day, the history books will list his WC wins and Ashes victories, just as they will Bell. Bell, Cook and Pietersen have all been vital cogs in the England team over the last decade, and instead of arguing who was responsible for what, maybe it's better to accept its a team game and when one player fails, a team mate will be there to succeed. That is what great teams are built on after all.
I think Cook is/has been a very good test player. And maybe, similar to Gooch, he can take his game to another level at the twilight of his career and cement himself as a test great. But, I don't think he's quite there yet. He's certainly a great accumulator of runs during a period when the conditions have favoured batsmen, but does he win matches on his own in the way Pietersen did or as a spectator make you think I wish I was there when Cook smashed Steyn and Morkel out of the ground. I guess I set high standards for greatness and expect the greats to really stand out.
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Old 9th February 2016, 21:32   #6033
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This whole debate seems a bit pointless. It's a team game and every player who plays in a winning team contributes in some way. When England win I'm happy because England have won. I would never say 'I wouldn't mind losing today as long as so and so scores a ton.' The team wouldn't either.

Cabinboy, if you don't think Cook has been a great player, I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it.

GBG, nobody can say Pietersen hasn't had a massive impact on English cricket for the decade he was in the side. Sometimes he was crucial in England victories, sometimes he wasn't. At the end of the day, the history books will list his WC wins and Ashes victories, just as they will Bell. Bell, Cook and Pietersen have all been vital cogs in the England team over the last decade, and instead of arguing who was responsible for what, maybe it's better to accept its a team game and when one player fails, a team mate will be there to succeed. That is what great teams are built on after all.
Bell hasn't won a world cup, although he's certainly helped lose a few.

I wouldn't care about the team argument except people (Sir Virgs being the latest) continually bring it up as a reason why KP shouldn't be involved. The suggestion that he's a team cancer is clearly ludicrous when he's the most successful team player in England history. As was proved after he was sacked and we continued to struggle he was not the problem.

Cook's a good player but as his performance in South Africa once again illustrated, he's not a great player.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 9th February 2016, 21:43   #6034
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Bell hasn't won a world cup, although he's certainly helped lose a few.

I wouldn't care about the team argument except people (Sir Virgs being the latest) continually bring it up as a reason why KP shouldn't be involved. The suggestion that he's a team cancer is clearly ludicrous when he's the most successful team player in England history. As was proved after he was sacked and we continued to struggle he was not the problem.

Cook's a good player but as his performance in South Africa once again illustrated, he's not a great player.
Isn't the point that he WAS a great team player and then he lost interest in ODI and it all started to unravel. He turned up when it suited him. He is still capable of great things but if you think that someone who slated the team and captain in a book would not cause the team spirit to change then you have no idea how teams work.

It is similar to how fergie treated players like becks, Keane and ruud. They got too big for their boots so were moved on even though they were still very good. Players like scholes, giggs and Gary Neville were not moved on. They were true team players. Surely you can see the difference?
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Old 9th February 2016, 21:46   #6035
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Ps. Since he was dropped we have not struggled that much though have we? We lost a series to Sri Lanka when it was still going on (when we could easily have won series 1-0 as lose it) and then thrashed India. We have only lost one other series which was away to Pakistan (and did better than we did with kp) plus won the ashes and won in saffer land (which kp never did).

If he is a match winner and great team man then why has he never won a domestic t20?
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Old 9th February 2016, 21:48   #6036
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Great players do great things. England haven't had many greats whilst I've been watching - Botham, Willis, Gower, Gooch, Flintoff, Anderson and Pietersen. That's pretty much the lot.

Broad, Stokes and Root may someday join that club, we will have to see. Vaughan would have joined that club but for his dodgey knee. Same with Gough. Had Stewart not been lumbered with the wicketkeeping, he also might have been there too. Don't think I'm missing anyone.
Lol. Broad is a proven match winner. Anyone who denies this Has some sort of issue. I would suggest that broad has won a shed load more matches for England than Fred and probably kp.
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Old 9th February 2016, 21:51   #6037
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I think Cook is/has been a very good test player. And maybe, similar to Gooch, he can take his game to another level at the twilight of his career and cement himself as a test great. But, I don't think he's quite there yet. He's certainly a great accumulator of runs during a period when the conditions have favoured batsmen, but does he win matches on his own in the way Pietersen did or as a spectator make you think I wish I was there when Cook smashed Steyn and Morkel out of the ground. I guess I set high standards for greatness and expect the greats to really stand out.
For me watching Cook grind out his 264 against Pakistan was just as impressive as Stokes hitting 248 against SA.

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Bell hasn't won a world cup, although he's certainly helped lose a few.

I wouldn't care about the team argument except people (Sir Virgs being the latest) continually bring it up as a reason why KP shouldn't be involved. The suggestion that he's a team cancer is clearly ludicrous when he's the most successful team player in England history. As was proved after he was sacked and we continued to struggle he was not the problem.

Cook's a good player but as his performance in South Africa once again illustrated, he's not a great player.
Bell has never been solely responsible for losing a World Cup, not least because during his career England were never in a position to win one. For me losing a World Cup would be needing to limit the opposition to 25 in the final over of the final and going around the park. But if makes you happy to blame Bell then that's up to you.

I can't stress enough that I believe Pietersen was a tremendous player when he was on song. But come, he fell out with Fowler and Moores. He fell out with senior figures at Nottinghamshire. His departure from Hampshire was acrimonious.

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Isn't the point that he WAS a great team player and then he lost interest in ODI and it all started to unravel. He turned up when it suited him. He is still capable of great things but if you think that someone who slated the team and captain in a book would not cause the team spirit to change then you have no idea how teams work.

It is similar to how fergie treated players like becks, Keane and ruud. They got too big for their boots so were moved on even though they were still very good. Players like scholes, giggs and Gary Neville were not moved on. They were true team players. Surely you can see the difference?
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:05   #6038
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Ps. Since he was dropped we have not struggled that much though have we?
Whilst things are now on the up, it was pretty horrific - losing at home to Sri Lanka's seamers, that West Indies tour, the World Cup fiasco.

It shows that the problem wasn't KP.

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Bell has never been solely responsible for losing a World Cup, not least because during his career England were never in a position to win one. For me losing a World Cup would be needing to limit the opposition to 25 in the final over of the final and going around the park. But if makes you happy to blame Bell then that's up to you.
England were in a position to win the last World Cup but picked the wrong players and used the wrong tactics. Just look at the team we should have picked and how they have beaten NZ, Pakistan and are leading SA.

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I can't stress enough that I believe Pietersen was a tremendous player when he was on song. But come, he fell out with Fowler and Moores. He fell out with senior figures at Nottinghamshire. His departure from Hampshire was acrimonious.
A tremendous player and a highly competitive individual who didn't take well to losing. But his job was to score runs, not to be liked.

When you say he fell out with Moores, this was because he wanted Moores sacked. He was completely right in this. History has twice proved him right about it!
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:09   #6039
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hang on GBG. You hate moores and yes he lost one series and was a shocking World Cup. Moores was not boss when kp was sacked. We had been successful since his fall out first time. What about falling out with flower (our coach who took us to number 1)

We all know he was ****ed off by not being allowed time to rest (so he could fly around India for 6 weeks). And it was never the same since. Hence my point re feeling bigger than the team.
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Old 9th February 2016, 22:11   #6040
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You can be right and go about things the wrong way.
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