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Old 29th July 2007, 16:41   #201
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Quote:
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There's very little difference in their batting averages:

Rashid: 32.10
Loudon: 32.25

It's just that Loudon has five centuries including a big 172 compared to Adil's zero tons.

I'd also agree with posters that it's his bowling that should get Rashid into the side, and with Prior and Flintoff in the team any runs from Rashid will be an added bonus.

I really can't imagine the circumstances now that a fit Rashid won't tour Sri Lanka and won't play.

Exactly. The main point been that although his bowling average isnt that great this season (about 35ish?) he has got wickets and bowled well.
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Old 29th July 2007, 18:06   #202
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I dont actually see Loudon as that good a batsmen. FC average 32 and List A 22 sort of backs that up. Good fielding may sway it if you are nearly there, esp in ODI, but I dont think he is nearly there.

I think you might have changed your view if you saw him take Warne apart this season - in the second of three exceptional hundreds. Fc averages dont back it up really - Alex has only this season become virtually a full time bats man - and averages nearly 50 as a result.
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Old 29th July 2007, 18:13   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinboy View Post
There's very little difference in their batting averages:

Rashid: 32.10
Loudon: 32.25

It's just that Loudon has five centuries including a big 172 compared to Adil's zero tons.

I'd also agree with posters that it's his bowling that should get Rashid into the side, and with Prior and Flintoff in the team any runs from Rashid will be an added bonus.

I really can't imagine the circumstances now that a fit Rashid won't tour Sri Lanka and won't play.
Just that?

Alex has real class with the bat. Thats always been his way forward not his overestimated and rapidly declining bowling. But as you say Rashid has to go for his bowling alone. No other choice - third spinner might as well be Alastaire Campbell given the options.

Last edited by Kim : 29th July 2007 at 18:19.
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Old 29th July 2007, 18:21   #204
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If the selectors have any sense and any respect for Terry Jenners professional view, the bloke who setup everything so that Rashid was able to come through, then young Rashid will not tour Sri Lanka. I personally hate the idea of potentially feeding a young leggy to the wolves just to accommodate Flintoff and his crap batting. Not worth the risk IMO.
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Old 29th July 2007, 18:54   #205
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If the selectors have any sense and any respect for Terry Jenners professional view, the bloke who setup everything so that Rashid was able to come through, then young Rashid will not tour Sri Lanka. I personally hate the idea of potentially feeding a young leggy to the wolves just to accommodate Flintoff and his crap batting. Not worth the risk IMO.
Had it been a tour of Australia or South Africa, then I'd back you up, but Sri Lanka is one of the most spin friendly tours in cricket, and a talent like Rashid should flourish in such an environment. England will need two spinners in all three matches, and nobody else is crying out to be selected.
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Old 29th July 2007, 20:03   #206
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If the selectors have any sense and any respect for Terry Jenners professional view, the bloke who setup everything so that Rashid was able to come through, then young Rashid will not tour Sri Lanka. I personally hate the idea of potentially feeding a young leggy to the wolves just to accommodate Flintoff and his crap batting. Not worth the risk IMO.
Err what? Rashid won't play (if he does) to accommodate Flintoff as much as to allow a balanced attack. You'd prefer an attack with just one spinner and three pace bowlers (not including Flintoff, perhaps our best seamer on sub continental tracks) would you?
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Old 29th July 2007, 20:11   #207
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An attack of Flintoff, Rashid, Hoggard, Sidebottom and Panesar would be brilliant to watch. It has almost the perfect balance and if Rashid turns out to be mustard then it could work at home and away
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Old 29th July 2007, 20:17   #208
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An attack of Flintoff, Rashid, Hoggard, Sidebottom and Panesar would be brilliant to watch. It has almost the perfect balance and if Rashid turns out to be mustard then it could work at home and away
Sounds quite like a decent attack doesn't it, as long as they're all fit and Rashid turns out to be able to bowl at test level? Perhaps a bit of real pace and bounce in there aside from Flintoff?
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Old 29th July 2007, 20:23   #209
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Yep, but I've been so impressed with Sidebottom that he is almost first name on the teamsheet for me. Harmison could come in from Hoggard if he isn't bowling like a donkey but even then Hoggy is probably worth his place ahead of Harmison and Tremlett still has a way to go to being an automatic pick. It's a nice situation to be in though for England. It would be interesting if Harmison got overlooked for a while in Tests whether he would consider playing ODIs again but that is probably for another thread
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Old 31st July 2007, 08:49   #210
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Personally i think it is way too early to be touting Rashin as the saviour of English cricket. Yes i am just as excited as anyone about him, but i've seen it all before so refuse to get my hopes up until he has proven at international level. However, having said that i WOULD take him on tour just for the experience, he doesn't need to play, but the experience will be great for him. I'd give him some tour games and it would be good for him to get training in the England set up. I still believe he needs another full season before seriously being considered for regular selection, but take him on tour nontheless, and as said, if the worst possible thing happens (Monty getting injured) he probably is no worse an option than anyone else.
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:16   #211
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An attack of Flintoff, Rashid, Hoggard, Sidebottom and Panesar would be brilliant to watch. It has almost the perfect balance and if Rashid turns out to be mustard then it could work at home and away

If Prior can bat at 6 that is feasable. Otherwise thats a hell of a tail from 6.
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:20   #212
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Personally i think it is way too early to be touting Rashin as the saviour of English cricket. Yes i am just as excited as anyone about him, but i've seen it all before so refuse to get my hopes up until he has proven at international level. However, having said that i WOULD take him on tour just for the experience, he doesn't need to play, but the experience will be great for him. I'd give him some tour games and it would be good for him to get training in the England set up. I still believe he needs another full season before seriously being considered for regular selection, but take him on tour nontheless, and as said, if the worst possible thing happens (Monty getting injured) he probably is no worse an option than anyone else.
Thats all very well, but who plays as our second spinner if not Rashid. Is there a spinner who has taken wickets in FC cricket this season? Keedy or Rashid really.
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:24   #213
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Swann has had a pretty good season.

But hes still Swann.
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:31   #214
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Thats all very well, but who plays as our second spinner if not Rashid. Is there a spinner who has taken wickets in FC cricket this season? Keedy or Rashid really.
It really is a catch 22 isn't it!
We should reframe from throwing him in too early, simply because that will fuel the press hype etc even more so and if he fails....well, we all know what the English press is like. That is why personally i'd like him to get a bit more experience, 1) to prove he is good enough over an extended period 2) to get that extra experience so to learn how to cope if a batter decides to go after him (so he doesn't just fall to peices).
Having said that, he has been one of the better spinners this year so he probably deserves a place, i have also in the past been a strong believer in getting talented kids into the team early so that they can learn from an early age exactly what things they should expect at that level + will learn their own faults (which will be exposed at international level) and then they can go away and work on them.
In fact, i think i have just convinced myself he must go on tour, and i would really look forward to seing him play. We just have to be careful not to all get caught up in the hype, many a talented kid has failed due to mounted pressure/expectancy from the masses at such a tender age.
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Old 1st August 2007, 15:39   #215
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If Prior can bat at 6 that is feasable. Otherwise thats a hell of a tail from 6.
6. Flintoff, 5 test centuries, average 32.50
7. Prior, 1 test century, average 42.77
8. Rashid, fc average 32.10
9. Hoggard
10. Sidebottom
11. Panesar

That's possibly stronger than the tail England won the Ashes with, or the tail they've just played with.
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Old 1st August 2007, 16:05   #216
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It really is a catch 22 isn't it!
We should reframe from throwing him in too early, simply because that will fuel the press hype etc even more so and if he fails....well, we all know what the English press is like. That is why personally i'd like him to get a bit more experience, 1) to prove he is good enough over an extended period 2) to get that extra experience so to learn how to cope if a batter decides to go after him (so he doesn't just fall to peices).
Having said that, he has been one of the better spinners this year so he probably deserves a place, i have also in the past been a strong believer in getting talented kids into the team early so that they can learn from an early age exactly what things they should expect at that level + will learn their own faults (which will be exposed at international level) and then they can go away and work on them.
In fact, i think i have just convinced myself he must go on tour, and i would really look forward to seing him play. We just have to be careful not to all get caught up in the hype, many a talented kid has failed due to mounted pressure/expectancy from the masses at such a tender age.
He goes as the next best spinner after Monty, not the next best thing. An important difference I think.
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Old 1st August 2007, 16:08   #217
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6. Flintoff, 5 test centuries, average 32.50
7. Prior, 1 test century, average 42.77
8. Rashid, fc average 32.10
9. Hoggard
10. Sidebottom
11. Panesar

That's possibly stronger than the tail England won the Ashes with, or the tail they've just played with.
True. I would just argue that a tail of:

Bell (test average 45)
Prior
Fred
Rashid
Hoggard
Monty

looks better and if 4 bowlers cant complete the job why would 5? In SL this means 2 + 2, elsewhere often means 3 + 1. The extra seamer wont do much and we loose hugely in the batting as its basically Bell/Colly or SiBo in the team.
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Old 1st August 2007, 16:15   #218
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True. I would just argue that a tail of:

Bell (test average 45)
Prior
Fred
Rashid
Hoggard
Monty

looks better and if 4 bowlers cant complete the job why would 5? In SL this means 2 + 2, elsewhere often means 3 + 1. The extra seamer wont do much and we loose hugely in the batting as its basically Bell/Colly or SiBo in the team.
If Bell's test average was still 45 we wouldn't be 1-0 down in this series.
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Old 1st August 2007, 16:25   #219
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Originally Posted by Vaughanforever View Post
True. I would just argue that a tail of:

Bell (test average 45)
Prior
Fred
Rashid
Hoggard
Monty

looks better and if 4 bowlers cant complete the job why would 5? In SL this means 2 + 2, elsewhere often means 3 + 1. The extra seamer wont do much and we loose hugely in the batting as its basically Bell/Colly or SiBo in the team.
Because the 5th bowler might bowl well and take wickets? Because he might allow the others to bowl shorter, more effective spells? Because he removes the need to use a part timer like Collingwood for a few overs? Because he would balance the attack better?
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Old 1st August 2007, 16:32   #220
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I agree with FS - we need five bowlers. Even with the Harmison, Flintoff Hoggard Gilo and Jones all bowling well we still needed five bowlers in 2005, so I can' t see four worse bowlers doing the job now.
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