Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > England
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 25th February 2016, 20:58   #261
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDogg16 View Post
I don't think Moeen is the worst all rounder to play twenty Tests. I think he's a fairly decent player, especially in ODI cricket, but not the saviour SVAZ claims he is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Has SV actually said this?
Nope. I haves made jokes that he is better than warne because of his far superior stats vs India but that is obviously joking. My view has always been that there is no spin bowler who is that much better that he plays because moeen can contribute crucial runs. I hope that this season we unearth a gem but I don't see one on the horizon so until we have a better option he plays.

Unless of course we don't play a spin bowler then that is a different argument but going into a test with five seamers is daft.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2016, 21:05   #262
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Given his awful bowling and his lack of hundreds and sheltering behind the godlike genius of Ben Stokes can we ask ...

Is Moeen the worst English all rounder ever ?*




*That has somehow managed to get selected for over 20 tests.
Why the focus on all rounders? There are worse bowlers ffs. This is the sort of post that makes me defend moeen.

Giles averages 41 and strike rate 85
Moeen's average is still just about below 40 and strike rate about 65.

Giles has four fifties and no hundreds from 54 matches. Moeen has more fifties and a ton from 23 matches.

Tuffers only averaged 2 lower and his strike rate is 27 worse than moeen and he could not bat.

To argue that he has no value is just stupid.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2016, 21:08   #263
CDogg16
Established International
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Nope. I haves made jokes that he is better than warne because of his far superior stats vs India but that is obviously joking. My view has always been that there is no spin bowler who is that much better that he plays because moeen can contribute crucial runs. I hope that this season we unearth a gem but I don't see one on the horizon so until we have a better option he plays.

Unless of course we don't play a spin bowler then that is a different argument but going into a test with five seamers is daft.
You have also claimed he won The Ashes for England when in reality he was a bit part player.
CDogg16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2016, 22:12   #264
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Why the focus on all rounders? There are worse bowlers ffs. This is the sort of post that makes me defend moeen.

Giles averages 41 and strike rate 85
Moeen's average is still just about below 40 and strike rate about 65.

Giles has four fifties and no hundreds from 54 matches. Moeen has more fifties and a ton from 23 matches.

Tuffers only averaged 2 lower and his strike rate is 27 worse than moeen and he could not bat.

To argue that he has no value is just stupid.
As mentioned a page or two ago, I think the strike rate argument is rather dubious, because Moeen hardly ever bowls much of a spell. Giles and Tufnell both frequently played a role that Moeen can't really play, which involved bowling with the old ball for a couple of hours while nothing is happening, keeping things as tight as possible and hoping for a batsman's mistake. But if Cook puts Moeen on to bowl in such a situation, pretty quickly it's free runs and he has to be taken off and replaced by a seamer. So really, the apparently inferior strike rate of Giles and Tufnell is probably largely a byproduct of their greater utility as bowlers.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2016, 22:29   #265
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
As mentioned a page or two ago, I think the strike rate argument is rather dubious, because Moeen hardly ever bowls much of a spell. Giles and Tufnell both frequently played a role that Moeen can't really play, which involved bowling with the old ball for a couple of hours while nothing is happening, keeping things as tight as possible and hoping for a batsman's mistake. But if Cook puts Moeen on to bowl in such a situation, pretty quickly it's free runs and he has to be taken off and replaced by a seamer. So really, the apparently inferior strike rate of Giles and Tufnell is probably largely a byproduct of their greater utility as bowlers.
Or he gets a crucial wicket and the whip him off and put the seamers on. Remember the ashes? It kept happening but the wickets did not count because the batsman made a mistake.

He does not bore people out by bowling left arm over. This is true.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2016, 22:30   #266
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDogg16 View Post
You have also claimed he won The Ashes for England when in reality he was a bit part player.
But part. Lol. Did you read the articles I posted. He was second highest wicket taker and third highest run scorer. How in the name of Gavin Hamilton is that bit part?
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2016, 22:38   #267
CDogg16
Established International
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
But part. Lol. Did you read the articles I posted. He was second highest wicket taker and third highest run scorer. How in the name of Gavin Hamilton is that bit part?
Root and Broad were the stars. Bit part probably doesn't do him justice, but if it had been someone else playing England would have still probably won.

And no, I never read the match reviews you posted about a game that took place six months ago.
CDogg16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2016, 23:23   #268
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDogg16 View Post
Root and Broad were the stars. Bit part probably doesn't do him justice, but if it had been someone else playing England would have still probably won.

And no, I never read the match reviews you posted about a game that took place six months ago.
Yup. Root top scored and broad took most wickets. So obvious stand outs. But moeen was third highest run scorer and second highest wicket taker. So calling bit part is not failing to do him justice. It is plain wrong.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 00:38   #269
square leg umpire
Legendary
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: yorkshire
Team(s): yorkshire
Posts: 8,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
I was thinking Chris Lewis and Derek Pringle but both had better bowling averages!! Both managed more five-fers and Lewis even managed a ton. Add Craig White to that list too.
Lewis was very promising but went of the rails, Pringle was just rubbish.
square leg umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 08:13   #270
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,577
And neither were spin bowlers so a complete irrelevance to this discussion. We have always had seam bowlers who disappointed with the bat. Apart from Swann our spin bowlers have been pretty crap for decades. Monty had his moments on viciously turning and bouncing pitches but on anything else he was pretty poor.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 10:02   #271
Notts Exile
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Berkshire
Team(s): Notts and Forest
Posts: 2,495
Monty could hold an end up an so could Swann. It was also Gilo's forte. One of England's major issues away from seaming tracks is our spinner's lack of control. When the quicker guys are tired you need a slow bowler to keep things under control. One of the reasons Oz are doing well at the moment, apart from their weight if runs, is that Nathan Lyon holds an end up well. Moeen cannot do it, he bowls far too much dross.
Notts Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 10:04   #272
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
Monty could hold an end up an so could Swann. It was also Gilo's forte. One of England's major issues away from seaming tracks is our spinner's lack of control. When the quicker guys are tired you need a slow bowler to keep things under control. One of the reasons Oz are doing well at the moment, apart from their weight if runs, is that Nathan Lyon holds an end up well. Moeen cannot do it, he bowls far too much dross.
What's the alternative?
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 10:10   #273
Notts Exile
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Berkshire
Team(s): Notts and Forest
Posts: 2,495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
What's the alternative?
Blood one of the younger spinners? Throw someone in at the deep end? (Can end pretty disastrously though).

Unless something changes we will suffer on flat tracks because of it. It's a catch 22 situation isn't it? We like Moeen's wicket taking ability but bemoan his lack of control.
Notts Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 10:21   #274
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
Blood one of the younger spinners? Throw someone in at the deep end? (Can end pretty disastrously though).

Unless something changes we will suffer on flat tracks because of it. It's a catch 22 situation isn't it? We like Moeen's wicket taking ability but bemoan his lack of control.
Most spinners get smashed in county cricket so the step up might ruin them. I hope someone starts to come through but each time someone promising comes along they seem to struggle. Kerrigan got his chance and fell apart, Riley keeps tredders out of the side but was poor last season. Then there are some really young kids.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 10:40   #275
Comte Nom de Plume
County Pro
 
Comte Nom de Plume's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gloucestershire
Team(s): Worcs and Yorks CCCs
Posts: 531
I despair when I see this thread rolling into perpetuity as some posters use it to air their ingrained grievances, trolling skills and all round ignorance of the game.
For the record, as a Worcester supporter, I can tell you that Mo Ali is one of the most thoroughly decent cricketers I've met. He works very hard on his game and would be the first to admit that he is not the finished article. He can be frustrating at times when he under performs but he certainly doesn't deserve some of the bile that dished up here.
I realise that these comments will have zero impact on his monotonously repetitive detractors.
Comte Nom de Plume is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 11:06   #276
Notts Exile
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Berkshire
Team(s): Notts and Forest
Posts: 2,495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comte Nom de Plume View Post
For the record, as a Worcester supporter, I can tell you that Mo Ali is one of the most thoroughly decent cricketers I've met. He works very hard on his game and would be the first to admit that he is not the finished article. He can be frustrating at times when he under performs but he certainly doesn't deserve some of the bile that dished up here.
Comte, I am sure he is, he comes across very well. I hope that he is working on his consistency because that's where he is found wanting. Were England to have a spinner who could bowl probing spells, take wickets and score good runs at number eight then we would all be happy, deliriously so probably. At present we don't, so the debate will continue. Is it personal? I doubt it.
Notts Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 11:17   #277
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 24,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
Comte, I am sure he is, he comes across very well. I hope that he is working on his consistency because that's where he is found wanting. Were England to have a spinner who could bowl probing spells, take wickets and score good runs at number eight then we would all be happy, deliriously so probably. At present we don't, so the debate will continue. Is it personal? I doubt it.
I think the 'debate' has become personal points scoring between a handful of posters both pro and anti without a proper discussion on his actual performance. He's just about kept his head above water (IMO) with his good performance in the first test in SA (as I said earlier) but his lack of consistency, and inability to have improved that aspect of his bowling is a concern in my view. That said like a lot of others I just don't see a particularly good alternative at the moment.
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 11:31   #278
slop
Posting God
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Cambridge
Team(s): South Africa
Age: 42
Posts: 18,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
I think the 'debate' has become personal points scoring between a handful of posters both pro and anti without a proper discussion on his actual performance. He's just about kept his head above water (IMO) with his good performance in the first test in SA (as I said earlier) but his lack of consistency, and inability to have improved that aspect of his bowling is a concern in my view. That said like a lot of others I just don't see a particularly good alternative at the moment.
Agree on both points. The debate is personal with extreme positions entrenched and defended no matter what. In the meantime, Ali plods on with the odd contribution and no-one better coming along, but his averages looking pretty mediocre.
slop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 11:37   #279
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,577
The only way my view can be considered extreme is that he is comfortably our best option. I have never argued he is a world beater. My constant point has been that his overall contribution is far greater than any alternatives. The fact this bar is low is not the point. The point is that in our tallest dwarf contest he is clearly the big one.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2016, 11:48   #280
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
Blood one of the younger spinners? Throw someone in at the deep end? (Can end pretty disastrously though).

Unless something changes we will suffer on flat tracks because of it. It's a catch 22 situation isn't it? We like Moeen's wicket taking ability but bemoan his lack of control.
Some names would be nice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
The only way my view can be considered extreme is that he is comfortably our best option. I have never argued he is a world beater. My constant point has been that his overall contribution is far greater than any alternatives. The fact this bar is low is not the point. The point is that in our tallest dwarf contest he is clearly the big one.
I agree with you on this point, but your repeated misuse of statistics and incessant need to call out those you disagree with doesn't help your cause.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:37.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Cricket247.org