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Old 15th December 2016, 13:58   #1
Chin Music
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Where now?

With the series drawing to a close in India, I thought it might be time to assess where all the players selected are in the pecking order so here goes. I realise that there might be some who have a success of sorts, heck maybe a de-mob happy India might ease off but it is small beer in the wider scheme of things so here goes.

Cook - the captaincy debate can be taken to the appropriate thread but either way he's going to open the batting, injury permitting next July. Disappointing sort of series for him with a decent ton and a couple of other fair contributions, but to be honest that far out of line for what he has produced for much of the last 18 months put together really.

Hameed - he has shown the cojones and no little ability before that hand injury did for him and it is likely he will be given a go once fit again, though it remains to be seen how he plays high class pace and seam on more conducive surfaces.

Jennings - One test match but he will allow the upper order more depth than it currently has.

Root - similar to Cook really. He's threatened to do so much more and will be disappointed not to have cashed in when he looked well set, but it is not out of line with some of his efforts over the last 18 months either.

Ali - I must admit I thought he would do well in a middle order position and he started well enough at Rajkot, yet being promoted up to 4 in Mohali and Mumbai has been a bridge too far. I don't think he's bowled terribly but simply hasn't offered enough of a threat. I believe that he will likely play as the batting spinner at 7 v SA but would be surprised if he isn't necessarily going to play in Australia.

Stokes - An in and out sort of series for him. Shown real signs of class with both bat and ball but a bit brain dead once or twice too often. Strangely underused in Mumbai so little chance to work up any rhythm. Needs to be managed carefully. Not sure why he has to play in the ODI series in the new year.

Bairstow - Has looked as though he has had a lot more runs in him than he's got and is hampered by not batting higher in the order until now. How high can he be asked to bat without the length of time he's spent out in the field not affecting him physically? One of England's best 3 batsmen.

Buttler - A couple of signs of real promise but nothing more. Will he be asked to spend time playing county cricket instead of going to the IPL next year? He clearly needs some practice developing his game instead of the slogathon.

Duckett - The folly of the scheduling of the Lions tours meant no chance to go and hone his game in Asia at any time before this tour or go and do some real learning in this part of the world until March. Another opportunity that I will gladly take to dig out Strauss (and Flower) and I ain't gonna miss it. Should have been in the limited overs squad for January though.

Ballance - The folly of his original selection in the first place for Bangladesh compounded when he stayed in the squad for India despite Cook and Bayliss rightly thinking he was unselectable. Again a sensible Lions programme would have got him to go and work at his game. I still think that there's a player to work with there but he needs to really be out of the spotlight for some time before coming back.

Woakes - A real disappointing tour. I didn't expect him to find it easy with the ball and he really needs a lot of work in understanding his game when he comes here as he could have got to mix it up more with the bouncer-yorker combinations. Might not necessarily find Australia to his liking either but would possibly expect to at least start the series v South Africa. It seemed his lack of bowling success impinged on his batting and seemed somewhat frazzled with the willow in his hand. Then again he wasn't the only one.

Finn- Like Ballance should never have been on the India tour and should have been away working on his game as he can find it brutally from time to time but then appears to regress to nothingness.

Ball - He didn't bowl too bad in Mumbai and clearly there is a fair bit to work with. I hope he is in the mix come next summer.

Rashid - Far better than most anticipated but never really looked like ripping through so an accomplished set of batsmen against spin bowling. Still possibly half a yard too slow, but improving and as I've said elsewhere he may be the best spin bowling option for down-under.

Anderson - disgraceful that a leader of the attack should have bowled the way he did in the last couple of tests. I've watched him bowl in Mumbai in '06 and '12 and in Galle in '12 and he either took wickets or at least threated to in the games 4 years back with intelligent bowling. Perhaps time is catching up with him and the way he bowls for Lancs needs to be monitored properly. I understand he's been withdrawn for the last test tomorrow. I wouldn't have picked him in any case.

Broad - seemingly more injury prone and that after a reasonable couple of tests was not something England could afford. This rest period after this game comes at the right sort of time, but he will need to be managed well to get right for a tough series v South Africa.

Batty - a poor selection even if there was no great belief that some of the younger spin bowlers were ready. Won't be seen in England colours again.

Ansari - I've watched enough of him and been surprised that he was mentioned as an England prospect, but then again spin bowling seems too much about the batting rather than actually spinning the ball enough. Not sure that he will be representing England any time soon unless he does real work on his action.

Dawson - May get a game tomorrow, may not. Seemingly pushed on Cook and Bayliss by Flower. I don't even think staunch Hampshire fans have been promoting him.

Fire away folks.
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Old 15th December 2016, 14:12   #2
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Comments on above:

Ali - if he's not going to the Ashes then why persist with his bits'n'pieces for another summer ? That would be repeating the mistakes of 2016

Ansari - long championed by Alec Stewart a player who would cement a place as an England mainstay. He either hasn't shown his best form or this is a glaring selection error caused by County bias.

Woakes - has his bowling been any worse than Jimmy or Balls ? His batting has certainly not hit the heights of last summer.
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Old 15th December 2016, 14:22   #3
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... Ali ... I believe that he will likely play as the batting spinner at 7 v SA ...
As mentioned elsewhere, I don't think it's really feasible for him to be no. 7. He was no. 7 with four bowlers batting below him last summer after Stokes got injured, but with Stokes back in the team Ali's going to be no. 8 (if he's in the team at all) for home tests. The only way he can be no. 7 at home with everybody fit is if you put a specialist batsman at 8, or an extra bowler you're not going to need.
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Old 15th December 2016, 14:25   #4
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Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Comments on above:

Ali - if he's not going to the Ashes then why persist with his bits'n'pieces for another summer ? That would be repeating the mistakes of 2016

Ansari - long championed by Alec Stewart a player who would cement a place as an England mainstay. He either hasn't shown his best form or this is a glaring selection error caused by County bias.

Woakes - has his bowling been any worse than Jimmy or Balls ? His batting has certainly not hit the heights of last summer.
On Ali, I don't see why they should select for a home series based on what they might necessarily do in the Ashes. Sure he should feel a bit more threatened but I still think he'll do ok at home.

Stewart isn't on the selection panel. I've never thought too much of Ansari's batting or bowling to be honest and it is defintely an error of the selectors to have brought him.

Woakes hasn't been truly terrible, it is just that he has predictably not been a wicket taking threat. Probably no worse than Anderson over the course of the series, but his batting has dragged his overall impact down too, whereas that's not a factor for Anderson.
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Old 15th December 2016, 14:27   #5
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As mentioned elsewhere, I don't think it's really feasible for him to be no. 7. He was no. 7 with four bowlers batting below him last summer after Stokes got injured, but with Stokes back in the team Ali's going to be no. 8 (if he's in the team at all) for home tests. The only way he can be no. 7 at home with everybody fit is if you put a specialist batsman at 8, or an extra bowler you're not going to need.
Except Stokes will bat at 6 and probably YJB at 5. His best batting came at no.7 so why does he not return there. As I say he's on notice to get deposed by Rashid in any case.
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Old 15th December 2016, 14:47   #6
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... His best batting came at no.7 so why does he not return there. ...
I guess that's fine if you want to build the side around him. But if he's at 7, who are your nos 8--11? There's either too many bowlers, or there's a specialist batsman or keeper in the tail.
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Old 15th December 2016, 14:51   #7
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You can't build a side around an all rounder unless he's world class like Stokes - if a player can't justify his place in the team after 35+ tests then lets move on.
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Old 15th December 2016, 14:54   #8
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Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
I guess that's fine if you want to build the side around him. But if he's at 7, who are your nos 8--11? There's either too many bowlers, or there's a specialist batsman or keeper in the tail.
For games in England it would be;-

1 Cook
2 Hameed
3 Jennings
4 Root
5 Bairstow
6 Stokes
7 Ali
8 Woakes
9 (haven't decided yet) could even be Rashid but likely to be a quick depending on conditions. I wistfully hope Mark Wood is fit or that Finn is selected when he's found his mojo for Middlesex which I admit might not happen
10 Broad
11 Anderson

A wider problem is that batting candidates for the upper order seem to be ruling themselves out. I'm quite keen on Root moving back to 4.
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Old 15th December 2016, 15:01   #9
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Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
For games in England it would be;-

1 Cook
2 Hameed
3 Jennings
4 Root
5 Bairstow
6 Stokes
7 Ali
8 Woakes
9 (haven't decided yet) could even be Rashid but likely to be a quick depending on conditions. I wistfully hope Mark Wood is fit or that Finn is selected when he's found his mojo for Middlesex which I admit might not happen
10 Broad
11 Anderson

A wider problem is that batting candidates for the upper order seem to be ruling themselves out. I'm quite keen on Root moving back to 4.
OK, so since last summer you've dropped a batsman and replaced him with a bowler. Last summer we had 4 seamers and a spinner, next summer you plan to have either 5 seamers and a spinner, or 4 seamers and 2 spinners. I think that's bowling overkill. The main problem for a while now has been that we haven't been able to score enough runs, so dropping a batsman for another bowler isn't going to help that. I think you're better off sticking Hales back in at 5 and moving everyone down a bit.
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Old 15th December 2016, 15:03   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Comments on above:

Ali - if he's not going to the Ashes then why persist with his bits'n'pieces for another summer ? That would be repeating the mistakes of 2016

Ansari - long championed by Alec Stewart a player who would cement a place as an England mainstay. He either hasn't shown his best form or this is a glaring selection error caused by County bias.

Woakes - has his bowling been any worse than Jimmy or Balls ? His batting has certainly not hit the heights of last summer.
You pick teams to win a series. What makes test cricket interesting is different players are suited to different conditions. The test team isn't a development 11.
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Old 15th December 2016, 15:21   #11
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You pick teams to win a series. What makes test cricket interesting is different players are suited to different conditions. The test team isn't a development 11.
Well we look like losing this series 4-0 . Add disappointing series in Bangla and the UAE and poor home draws vs NZ and Pakistan, I'm not sure the narrow wins over SA and Oz paper over the cracks.

Team needs a boot up the rear - time for the selectors to be more ruthless - perform or you are out.
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Old 15th December 2016, 16:11   #12
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Well we look like losing this series 4-0 . Add disappointing series in Bangla and the UAE and poor home draws vs NZ and Pakistan, I'm not sure the narrow wins over SA and Oz paper over the cracks.

Team needs a boot up the rear - time for the selectors to be more ruthless - perform or you are out.
There is very little depth in English cricket at the moment, division 2 is pretty awful and there are very few stand out performers in division 1.
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Old 15th December 2016, 16:13   #13
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For a drubbing that will end up being 3-0 or 4-0, there were certainly some positives to take away from this series. Things that we learned:

Hameed has real potential as an opener alongside Cook. I think there's a really strong argument for having two openers who can play long, defensive innings in your side, and not trying to have one steady-eddy and a dasher (Hales, arguably Lyth, obviously we want to have Warner in the side... or possibly Sehwag). What's more, Hameed showed he could play his shots - that one innings where he ground it out until he was batting with the tail and then scored at one-day rates. He does look a good prospect. Jennings at 3 or 4 is possible worth trying as well. Bairstow should be moved up a place.

Moeen can't bat up the order. Leave him at 7 where he has a licence to be aggressive, frustrates oppositions, and has a Bradmanesque average.

Woakes struggles to contain. Rashid has confirmed himself as the expensive wicket-taker we all suspected he would be. His batting has been poor this series; people who are suggesting Moeen could be swapped for Rashid... I think the side would miss Moeen's runs.

Now that I've actually written it all out, I'm not sure we really learned anything too dramatic about any specific player: at least, expectations beforehand were confirmed. The only really surprising things that happened this series IMO are the fact that Jennings got a century and Hameed looked good. Dropping a bowler for a batsman might help given the number of times this series we had one or even two bowlers (Ansari, Batty, later Woakes or Ball) looking like spare parts
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Old 15th December 2016, 16:27   #14
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... Moeen ... Leave him at 7 ...
See above! Moeen was only at 7 while Stokes was out of the side.
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Old 15th December 2016, 16:59   #15
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See above! Moeen was only at 7 while Stokes was out of the side.
I'd rather bat him at 8 than 4, then. But I also think Bairstow could bat at 5. So we'd have

Cook
Hameed
Jennings / Root
Root / Jennings
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler/ AN Other (batsman, seamer, spinner depending on conditions)
Ali (who could be swapped with AN Other if they're less good with the bat)
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

ETA (which is effectively what you're saying because you think another bowler is always overkill, fine)
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Old 15th December 2016, 17:30   #16
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It's a sorry list, Chin, that should shame those in charge of the English team and selection. It's very likely that even the best possible England side in the near possible nick would've lost this series but it seems everything was done to make this eventuality more, rather than less, likely.

Bad squad selections, poor scheduling of both senior and Lions tours, mystifying personnel decisions before and during tests... This tour smacks of the worst excesses of the 90s.

Part of me thinks that Cook might jack it all in. He certainly must be relieved of the captaincy. End of the road for Ali, Batty, Ballance and Ansari. Hopefully not for Duckett who I think has plenty of talent and should represent England in limited overs when chances arise. Anderson needs to be told quite strongly that his plane ticket Down Under is a long way from being bought.

Test XI for first test v SA (sorry ZA)?

Cook
Jennings
Root*
Hameed
TBC
Stokes
Bairstow+
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Ball

However, there is a lot of county cricket between now and that test, so I wouldn't be surprised to see other names like S Curran, Leach, Foakes, Wood etc end up in the mix.
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Old 15th December 2016, 21:41   #17
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It's a sorry list, Chin, that should shame those in charge of the English team and selection. It's very likely that even the best possible England side in the near possible nick would've lost this series but it seems everything was done to make this eventuality more, rather than less, likely.

Bad squad selections, poor scheduling of both senior and Lions tours, mystifying personnel decisions before and during tests... This tour smacks of the worst excesses of the 90s.

Part of me thinks that Cook might jack it all in. He certainly must be relieved of the captaincy. End of the road for Ali, Batty, Ballance and Ansari. Hopefully not for Duckett who I think has plenty of talent and should represent England in limited overs when chances arise. Anderson needs to be told quite strongly that his plane ticket Down Under is a long way from being bought.

Test XI for first test v SA (sorry ZA)?

Cook
Jennings
Root*
Hameed
TBC
Stokes
Bairstow+
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Ball

However, there is a lot of county cricket between now and that test, so I wouldn't be surprised to see other names like S Curran, Leach, Foakes, Wood etc end up in the mix.
At the moment Sam Curran isn't quick enough to be a test player and nowhere near a test batsman. 2 years at least before he's ready to play tests.
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Old 15th December 2016, 22:25   #18
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Cook, Hameed, Jennings, Root*, Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Rashid, Woakes, Broad, Anderson. Simple
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Old 16th December 2016, 02:49   #19
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OK, so since last summer you've dropped a batsman and replaced him with a bowler. Last summer we had 4 seamers and a spinner, next summer you plan to have either 5 seamers and a spinner, or 4 seamers and 2 spinners. I think that's bowling overkill. The main problem for a while now has been that we haven't been able to score enough runs, so dropping a batsman for another bowler isn't going to help that. I think you're better off sticking Hales back in at 5 and moving everyone down a bit.
The batsman I left out is Ballance and I think any sane individual would do so including the selectors although their sanity was in question when they picked him for Bangladesh and then left him in the squad when they moved here (I am not flying home until next Saturday, and it will start to get a teensy-wheensy bit lighter in the evenings when I do get home!). On reflection probably I would have the extra batsman and with reluctance I'd get Bairstow to lose the mitts with Buttler being asked to step up as the former is probably too valuable a player. I'm not saying it will definitely work but you have 2 very talented guys there. It is not their fault they also keep wicket to a similar state of mediocre competency. Given time I reckon Buttler would at least catch up with Bairstow with regards to the mitts but is likely best kept as a counter attacker at 7. His 70odd on his IPL home ground was a decent knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
It's a sorry list, Chin, that should shame those in charge of the English team and selection. It's very likely that even the best possible England side in the near possible nick would've lost this series but it seems everything was done to make this eventuality more, rather than less, likely.

Bad squad selections, poor scheduling of both senior and Lions tours, mystifying personnel decisions before and during tests... This tour smacks of the worst excesses of the 90s.

Part of me thinks that Cook might jack it all in. He certainly must be relieved of the captaincy. End of the road for Ali, Batty, Ballance and Ansari. Hopefully not for Duckett who I think has plenty of talent and should represent England in limited overs when chances arise. Anderson needs to be told quite strongly that his plane ticket Down Under is a long way from being bought.

Test XI for first test v SA (sorry ZA)?

Cook
Jennings
Root*
Hameed
TBC
Stokes
Bairstow+
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Ball

However, there is a lot of county cricket between now and that test, so I wouldn't be surprised to see other names like S Curran, Leach, Foakes, Wood etc end up in the mix.
Nice work Ali. As I said it is a pretty tough call to know where to go with the players that are there. I still think Mo could do a job in the lower middle order and he's been stuffed a little here by having to bat at 4 but I recognise his faults too and he just hasn't improved enough as a bowler despite nearly 3 years in international cricket. The seam bowling might look a little more promising in home climes but it needs a guy with real pace to come to the fore. Ball himself seems to have a yard in him so it might not be impossible but it remains to be seen. I think the SA series might be a very tough one as their quick bowling ranks are pretty good with Rabada having come on a treat. They also haven't lost in England since 98 and have drawn once and won twice since.

I've been big on looking at the broader picture with regards to the planning and preparation that has been made by those above the immediate team management and can only concur with your sentiments. A disgrace from those in charge at the ECB.
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Old 16th December 2016, 08:27   #20
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Ballance was a reasonable pick, he was already in the team and like other players was given an extended run to prove themselves. Finn was also in and anround the squad. Just because they didn't work out doesn't mean they were necessarily bad picks at the time. Duckett was a gamble, just like Hameed, in retrospect there was no reason to know which would be a success and who wouldn't. Despite the hullabaloo over Leech, I would have had concerns about taking an uncapped unproven young spinner on a gruelling tour like this and the long term impact it would have had upon the player. The bad selections we're Anderson - clearly injured with no match practice and who seems to conduct his own medical assessments; and Ansari who clearly had no defined role.

I should also note, most posters waxed lyrical about the selections for this squad when they were first announced. Go back and look. It was also clear that it was a squad picked for both Bangladesh and India, so the idea that reinforcements should have been expected was never going to happen. We all knew that, go back and look.

The bigger problem wasn't with the original squad selections (apart from the follly of still not picking KP) but with the actual matchday selections which the captain has even admitted to.
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